Memorial Day weekend agenda

[N to O]

First off, thinking of those that aren't home to enjoy it, those that are in far away places, dangerous places, doing a dangerous job. Wishing them the best as well as those of you that may have loved ones in that situation. As for myself, although retired, and the wife home, I am going to enjoy the time watching the Indy 500, and then later the 600 mile stockcar race. Mixed in with that is going to be some track work. A while back I ditched the DCC set up, having too much trouble with it, now I'm re-doing some of my track work to allow a train to run on the mainline and one long siding while being able to allow another engine to do some moving around on the 3 other sidings with dc. So, let the fun begin. Have a good weekend all.

[tjcruiser]

N to O,

I'll certainly echo your thoughts of well-wishes and thanks to our servicemen and women near and afar, to military retirees, and to the many souls whose legacy lives on.

Big weekend here in our household. Number 2 son turns 5 today. I measured him on the back of the closet door this morning and told him that he had shrunk. Poor kid is gonna need therapy! Maybe next year he'll be too smart to fall for all of Dad's teasing!

Lots of yard work. Wife just planted a small vegatable garden. $50 to rent a rototiller ... I wonder if we'll grow $50 worth of veggies before the rabbits eat them all?

Washed my car today ... first time in about 8 months. It's still blue!!! I wasn't sure, under all that dirt!

Very best family-fun wishes to all,

TJ

[T-Man]

Today I have been reading the kind words for our veterans.
For me it was uneventful. The allergy is getting the best of me. My son worked on his WW1 school project making flags. I realized the train table doesn't have a flag, but it does now. Salute!
Enjoy the weekend.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3059&stc=1&d=1275264660

[tjcruiser]

Trivia question ...

I made a model of the USS Constitution with my kids a while back. We modeled it to reflect the 1812 era.

How many stripes did we put on our American Flag ???

TJ

[big ed]

Every year on Saturday before Memorial Day, I go with my boys and their boy scout troop to put flags on the vets final resting place at the cemetery. Some of the vets go back to the Revolutionary War. We put out 1600 flags in the cemetery we do.

We clean up markers and grave stones on Veterans day. Two years ago when we cleaned them up we found 6 that where under the grass buried and forgotten. Well no more are they forgotten. The scouts made a map of all the grave-sites were all the Vets are in there.

Such a small thing to do for them. But it makes me feel good after I do that.

I said hello to my 2 grandmothers and grandfathers and 2 aunts and uncles who are there too. They didn't answer me.:rolleyes:

The rest of Saturday I watched the history channel as they were doing World War 2 stories most of the day.


Today, I visited my Dad with 2 of my sisters and Mom....at the Mausoleum. Lot of fun that was. :(
World War 2 vet engineer battalion building air strips in Okinawa. Thanks Dad.:thumbsup:
Then we went to my sisters house and had a barbecue.
I gave my sister my pool I had and set it up at her house. One of them self fill up pools. You blow up the top and just fill it up. 24' Sounds easy but we had to do a lot of digging to make it level! Sucked.
We recorded both races to watch.
Memorial day will be spent over my sisters house setting up the filter and adding chemicals to the pool. I hope it fills up over night.:rolleyes:
Then we will continue the barbecue with the rest of the family over.
I have 4 sisters and one Bro. Plus all their family's.

Friday night I added a little more color to the layout.:D By the looks of it I'm going to need a lot more grass and dirt before I am done. I think 50 more lbs of it shall do it.:laugh:
Plus 100 lbs more of ballast for the rails.:D



Please everyone have a safe holiday.

For all who are Vets here and everywhere I salute you and say Thankyou!

3060

[big ed]

Trivia question ...

I made a model of the USS Constitution with my kids a while back. We modeled it to reflect the 1812 era.

How many stripes did we put on our American Flag ???

TJ


It was the 13 star and 15 stripe Flag.:cool:

[big ed]

On April 14, 1818, a plan was passed by Congress in which the flag was changed to have 20 stars, with a new star being added when a new state was admitted, but the number of stripes would be 13, to honor the original colonies.

[tjcruiser]

Big Ed,

A HUGE thumbs-up thank you to you and your sons for your hard work taking such good care of our lost-but-not-forgotten vets. A very, VERY honarable tradition to undertake.

My Dad (now 85) is an Okinawa Marine vet ... went stormin' in to the beach on Easter Sunday, 1945. He's pretty soft-spoken about it, but I know there's some tough memories there.

Good history-digging on the 15 striped flag! I guess somebody figured they'd better stick with the "adding stars", 'cause a 50-stripe flag would look just plain silly!

TJ

[big ed]

Big Ed,

A HUGE thumbs-up thank you to you and your sons for your hard work taking such good care of our lost-but-not-forgotten vets. A very, VERY honarable tradition to undertake.

My Dad (now 85) is an Okinawa Marine vet ... went stormin' in to the beach on Easter Sunday, 1945. He's pretty soft-spoken about it, but I know there's some tough memories there.

Good history-digging on the 15 striped flag! I guess somebody figured they'd better stick with the "adding stars", 'cause a 50-stripe flag would look just plain silly!

TJ

It's not that hard sticking a flag to a plot, it's good exercise.:D
I guess this year will be the last, as they are through with scouts I think.:rolleyes:

Yes, wiki knows all.:thumbsup::D

[imatt88]

A salute to the vets!!!!

My wife and I just got home from RVing at the local state park. Had a blast and the weather was beautiful:thumbsup:

Hope everyone had a great weekend. Glad to be back:thumbsup:

[oldsteamer4]

I can't say it any better than tj's reply, re- Memorial Day. Our version in Canada is honoured at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month, and we call it Remembrance Day. May we never forget.

[Reckers]

While some will disagree with the statement I'm about to quote, I think it appropriate for Memorial Day. I stand by the statement, not so much in terms of America, as for all who have selflessly put their lives on the line for the betterment of the world. The words are from Colin Powell:

"[F]ar from being the Great Satan, I would say that we are the Great Protector. We have sent men and women from the armed forces of the United States to other parts of the world throughout the past century to put down oppression. We defeated Fascism. We defeated Communism. We saved Europe in World War I and World War II. We were willing to do it, glad to do it. We went to Korea. We went to Vietnam. All in the interest of preserving the rights of people.
And when all those conflicts were over, what did we do? Did we stay and conquer? Did we say, "Okay, we defeated Germany. Now Germany belongs to us? We defeated Japan, so Japan belongs to us"? No. What did we do? We built them up. We gave them democratic systems which they have embraced totally to their soul. And did we ask for any land? No, the only land we ever asked for was enough land to bury our dead. And that is the kind of nation we are."

At our best, we work to make this world a better place. No one person or nation is always right, including the United States. However, the inherent goodness of humanity drives us to work to make it a better world for everyone, instead of for just ourselves. Let's close out this holiday weekend remembering the goodness of those who inspire us as well as those who gave their lives to make this world a better place.

[Stillakid]

Well Said!

[tjcruiser]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Reckers]

Thank you both.

[big ed]

I agree somewhat, but how can he say we defeated Communism.:rolleyes:
Vietnam was a waste of everything.:mad:
Who do you think supplied North Vietnam, China maybe?

Is China not a communist country anymore? I thought it was still a communist country ruled by a single party system?:confused:

Look at Iraq......they want us out too.
We saved France and now they hate us.:rolleyes:

I say screw them all and instead of pouring our money all the time into some other country put it back in the USA. We help other countries with billions and neglect our own.

We lost millions of jobs by China's cheap, sweat shop made products.

Bring USA back to a superpower they once used to be!

Screw China!
Look at Korea, a lot of good that fight did.

And where the heck is Osama bin Lauden?
We still are losing people over him. It's hard to believe they can't find him.:rolleyes:
We found Saddam Hussein in his hole why can't they get him?

A lot of good men and woman died....and a lot of them ...for nothing! (especially in Vietnam)...not all, the WW's wars needed the USA. Or we all might be talking German, Japanese or Chinese right now.

Nothing against you Mr Reckers.
This world sometimes just pisses me off!

Sorry all thanks for letting me blow a little steam off.
Enough said, that's all.:mad:

[Reckers]

Ed, I understand completely and no offense is taken.

I believe the Korean War was worthwhile. I believe Vietnam was a terrible mistake based upon two flawed assumptions: 1. The Domino Theory, and 2. The US was unbeatable. History has called both assumptions into question.

For me, the bottom line is this: we have young men and women who have given their lives, and we have others who are prepared to do so if we call upon them. As non-combatants, it falls to the rest of us to value and protect those lives. Regardless of how we feel about past and present wars, we have that responsibility. Personally, I feel Ed's cynicism is highly appropriate in a discussion of Memorial Day: it stems from frustration that, in the past and possibly the present, we failed to protect those lives and wasted many of them in fruitless tasks. I think Ed pointing out how we at home may have failed those in uniform is an equally important remembrance.

[choo choo]

Vietnam was a waste of everything.

Having served in the Vietnam War when the military was hogtied by leftist political correctness and America cowardly turned tail and ran away to set the stage for Pol Pot to slaughter millions...

...my view naturally differs from yours.

Greg

[big ed]

Having served in the Vietnam War when the military was hogtied by leftist political correctness and America cowardly turned tail and ran away to set the stage for Pol Pot to slaughter millions...

...my view naturally differs from yours.

Greg
If you ask me we were hogtied in Vietnam starting in the mid 60's.
Cambodia and Laos is a whole different story.

How do you view it different from what I said? I agree with all you said.
Was it not a waste of money and more importantly a waste of people?

What did we accomplish there?
You said it yourself, political correctness and then run away. Let Pol Pot slaughter. And communism still lives? Unless I missed something and it is dead.

We did the same in Desert Storm we stormed them real quick and when were ready to storm into Baghdad the storm was called off, just to do it all over again years later.:rolleyes:

Compared to some of the other "wars" we were involved in I still think Vietnam was a waste of Americans. Screw the money.
We could have won it if it were not for the leftists and bleeding hearts.

You don't send your forces in an then tell them they can't shoot anyone.:rolleyes:

And they should have kept Fonda there! The trader!:cool:

Sorry if I offended you in some way Greg.:confused:

[choo choo]

Cambodia and Laos is a whole different story.

Hi Ed,

Even though they're different colors on a map,
there's no difference when you're actually there.

Sorry if I offended you in some way Greg.

Don't sweat it Ed... how could I be offended over something that happened 40 years ago? ;)

Take Care,

Greg

[Reckers]

Greg,

I'd like to respond to the points you raised. First, I respect the service you gave your country. I want to make that clear.

Vietnam was a failure. It was not a failure by our military.

We went into it for two reasons: one was politics, the other economics. I don't need to belabor you with the whole cold war/domino theory mindset: you know what it was as well as I do. France preceded us in Vietnam because of heavy colonial investment in rubber plantations and the like. When they decided to unass the AO, we stepped in. The idea was to fill the political vacuum caused by France leaving, to create an ally in the region a la' South Korea and Japan, and to make a lot of money off a 3rd world country. We've done it before and we will do it again.

We failed in Vietnam because we believed we were invincible. We told ourselves we were saving them, stopping communism, and so on. We created a bogus government and tried to create a docile population with guns and bombs. For a long time, the people outside of Saigon thought we were the French, coming back for another round.

Greg, I was one of those who felt we didn't belong there. That doesn't mean I didn't believe in backing those sent there: it means I felt we were wrong to go in, announce who would be their government, and assassinate and replace the ones who didn't work out. We did that.

The parellel I see, when looking at Vietnam is that of our original 13 colonies. We were being ruled by another country and we wanted to chart our own path. When they wouldn't leave willingly, we fought them until they took the hint and left. We had a bunch of radicals, opportunists, and land-grabbers in the lead: our founding fathers were no saints. I like that, though: they were men determined that this land and it's opportunities belonged to those who lived here. We received aid from France and other nations, not because we were right or noble, but because they had been fighting the English for hundreds of years. It was an opportunity to have someone else fight and die fighting the English instead of the French.

Men and women like yourself were sent there for the worst of reasons: greed. I hate that, but it's true. Greed for world power and status, greed for control, and greed for money. Opposing the war, for me, was opposing risking or wasting the lives of valuable people. It was not refusing to support you: it was demanding the government drag you back home where you belonged and keep you safe. It was demanding they stop risking you and others like you in a real-life game of Risk. Our armed forces did a terrific job there: given more time and resources, we probably could have temporarily prevailed and set up a South Korea style democracy. But, then what? Stay forever to maintain it? I don't believe that was possible. It would have simply bled our military dry. I don't believe 20 additional years would have yielded an authentic government that the people would have embraced. They wanted the foreigners out and to make their own choices, just as our forefathers did.

Greg, we at home failed in Vietnam. Not because we didn't continue to back the war: we failed because we allowed you to be sent there in the first place. I think that is why Ed suggested it was a waste: we wasted far too many lives and years of your life by sending you in harms way for poor reasons. You deserved better from us.

Sincerely,
Reckers

[choo choo]

Hey Reck, :)

Having actually been in Vietnam is what gave me a totally different perspective from yours... and it was the direct real world personal first hand experience of the consequences of this one simple truth:

~It is impossible to prevail in war by being politically correct.~ ;)

Greg

[big ed]

Quote:
Even though they're different colors on a map,
there's no difference when you're actually there.
I was not talking about the geographic features. A jungle is a jungle.
I was talking about the part they played in the war.:rolleyes:
Quote:
Don't sweat it Ed... how could I be offended over something that happened 40 years ago?
I don't sweat anymore, I guess your view is different then mine.
Somehow, someway you must not agree with what I said? You won't say why and that's fine.
Like I said the money doesn't really matter. But for some....The memories will never go away. Even if it was a 100 years ago.;)

What I meant by a, "waste of everything" is THE MILLIONS of the dead.
Most importantly over 58,000 Americans that died.
AND THEY DIED, FOR WHAT?:confused:
I don't know how anyone can disagree with that.

I never felt at the time that the war was bad. I was all for suppressing communism and kicking their _ _ _. But it was all for nothing the way I see it.
I agree with your statement too,
Quote:
It is impossible to prevail in war by being politically correct.
Vietnam brought a whole new meaning to These Colors Don't Run, huh.:rolleyes:

What is the past can't be changed, but what is the future can:cool:

All I know is that I am still Proud to be an American!:D

3140

That's all I am saying on this subject.
For now?:rolleyes::D


How about we all just stop this post and go back to trains.:D

[Reckers]

Hey Reck, :)

Having actually been in Vietnam is what gave me a totally different perspective from yours... and it was the direct real world personal first hand experience of the consequences of this one simple truth:

~It is impossible to prevail in war by being politically correct.~ ;)

Greg

Greg, I'm not sure what you mean by politically correct: it was being politically correct that got us into Vietnam. That was the problem. Kennedy saw that; had he been re-elected, he planned to get out of there as soon as possible. I'm not belittling the job you guys did over there. I am belittling the leaders who sent you and those who elected them. The war damaged our military for years after it was over.

THe Vietnam war was ill-defined, had no clear objective, and no measurable objectives. One result of the war was the Powell Doctrine. Colin Powell listed a series of challenges that should be met before American lives are risked in any future war:

The Powell Doctrine states that a list of questions all have to be answered affirmatively before military action is taken by the United States:

Is a vital national security interest threatened?
Do we have a clear attainable objective?
Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
Is the action supported by the American people?
Do we have genuine broad international support?[1]
As Powell said in an April 1, 2009 interview on The Rachel Maddow Show, the Doctrine denotes the exhausting of all "political, economic, and diplomatic means," which, only if those means prove to be futile, should a nation resort to military force.

Had this doctrine been in existence before the Tonkin Gulf incident, you'd never have seen Vietnam. Again, I respect your service for your country. I simply regret you were asked to make that sacrifice for such poor and ill-defined objectives.

[Reckers]

Sorry, Ed...I never saw your post till I was done blabbing!

[choo choo]

Greg, I'm not sure what you mean by politically correct:

No problem, Reck... I'll clarify. :)

it's exactly the opposite of what you mean by politically correct.

it was being politically correct that got us into Vietnam.

It was being politically correct that got us out of Viernam.

We were totally hamstrung by so many politically correct rules of engagement, the only possible outcome was failure. The government eventually caved in to the pressure of leftist politically correct anti-war protesting and the cowardly US retreat set the stage for the massacre of millions.