American Flyer Royal Blue

[SkyArcher]

Now I know that S scale is not the same as O scale. I just acquired an O scale Royal Blue and I'm wondering if they're the same size as the S scale Royal Blue other than the track width?

Does anybody have pictures of the two different scale Royal Blues?

[tjcruiser]

Good question! I don't know a definitive answer, but this was the case with some early AF S locos. Wikipedia offers this:

"By Summer, 1945 it was able to resume limited manufacturing of the 3/16s scale O gauge trains. While it did so, the same sized products were re-engineered to run on much more realistic two rail (with a "T" profile rail) track. The fine detail of the diecast engines, tenders and cars that had debuted in the '39 catalog reappeared. The engines and tenders continued to be made of diecast metal, but the cars' bodies were made out of plastic. Two pages of the spectacular 1946 catalog emphasize the running advantages of the lighter cars. Ironically, they soon realized that they had to add weight. Metal car bottoms & chassis were necessary to prevent the too-light cars from tipping over. The 'link & pin' automatic couplers that had been introduced on the 3/16s O products were reduced in size, with plastic replacing the sintered metal of the originals. They too, later had metal weights added because they would fail to descend to the locking position needed for cars to couple. The chugging mechanisms of the premium O gauge tenders were redesigned to also generate smoke, which was conveyed to the engines' smokestacks via a black rubber tube that protruded out of the rear of the cab so that it could connect to the front of the tender. Because of the relatively accurate scaleof the rolling stock and two rail track, these trains (not yet referred to as "S" gauge by Gilbert) were significantly more realistic than their 3 rail O gauge counterparts."

We have a few knowledgable S guys here on the forum who might chime in with a more clear answer.

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Are the wheels the same size between the two scales of the Royal Blue?

[big ed]

Are the wheels the same size between the two scales of the Royal Blue?

I think the wheels width is different. Narrower.
And as S scale is smaller then O I would think that the S scale engine would be smaller then the O.:confused::dunno:

Wheres all the S scale experts?:rolleyes:

[Reckers]

SkyArcher, welcome to the forum! I don't have the picture you requested, but I can share this much with you. There is a size difference between O gauge, S scale, and HO. American Flyer made all three sizes, so it's feasible to have the same pattern of locomotive in three distinct sizes. O is a scale that approximates 1:43, if memory serves me correctly, while S scale is 1:64, about halfway between O gauge and HO gauge. So, your O gauge engine is larger than it's S scale counterpart----it's not just different trucks and axles.

[big ed]

SkyArcher, welcome to the forum! I don't have the picture you requested, but I can share this much with you. There is a size difference between O gauge, S scale, and HO. American Flyer made all three sizes, so it's feasible to have the same pattern of locomotive in three distinct sizes. O is a scale that approximates 1:43, if memory serves me correctly, while S scale is 1:64, about halfway between O gauge and HO gauge. So, your O gauge engine is larger than it's S scale counterpart----it's not just different trucks and axles.


I thought O was 1/48?:confused: HO 1/87
S ??? Theres still S around?:laugh:

But thank you, KING OF S.:worshippy::D

[tjcruiser]

I remember reading somewhere that one of the old mfrs (Flyer?) were producing both O and S gage locos using the very same sized shells, but with different sized trucks and wheels.

I'll see if I can remember and dig up my source. (That said, note wiki-quoted comments above, too.)

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Thanks,

I have some On3 trains which are O-scale engines and cars that run on HO track. So it wouldn't surprise me to find that the Royal Blue shell is the same with different scale chassis.

Here is my latest restoration project. As you can see it has been well played with so I going to restore it back to it's former glory. The reason for the questions is to see if I can find some compatible replacement parts.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4879&d=1287709528

[SkyArcher]

Notice that in the picture that I attached, I laid a ruler next to the O-scale Royal Blue. How long is the S-scale Royal Blue?

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for checking! My #556 O-gauge shell is also 9 3/8" long as well. That opens up some possibilities for parts.:thumbsup:

[tjcruiser]

See. My bet's on the two (O and S) sharing the same shell size.

[Reckers]

I thought O was 1/48?:confused: HO 1/87
S ??? Theres still S around?:laugh:

But thank you, KING OF S.:worshippy::D

Ed, you're right about the size of O gauge--American O gauge, anyway. i was sleepy when I wrote that and mis-spoke. My error acknowledged, I'd point out O gauge is actually all over the board:


United Kingdom
British O Gauge

British outline 0 gauge model railway at Kew Pumping Station
Scale per foot: 7 mm to 1ft
Scale ratio: 1:43.5
Gauge: 32 mm
Prototype Gauge: Standard gauge

In the United Kingdom, O gauge equipment is produced at a scale of 1:43.5, which is 7 mm to the foot (using the common British practice of modelling in metric prototypes originally produced using Imperial measurements). It's often called 7 mm scale for this reason.


I posted that so I could pretend I was partly right!

[Reckers]

See. My bet's on the two (O and S) sharing the same shell size.

TJ, I admit that I can be wrong and might be wrong on this. Having seen a lot of O gauge trains, though, while seeking the elusive S scale at train shows, there's a very obvious difference in size. Even my girlfriend, who has yet to touch a transformer, can visually distinguish between the two. When we recently went through several....okay, hundreds of antique stores while vacationing, she'd matter-of-factly walk up to me and tell me she'd found some American Flyer for me to come see. My money is riding on the two shells being distinctly different.

[tjcruiser]

Reck,

Looks like inquiring minds are all on the edge of their seats! I'm basically clueless about AF and its O/S history, but have enjoyed learning a few fun tidbits from you guys. So let's see where this O/S size question leads.

I wish I could remember the book (???) that I read a while back that talked about a mfr using the same shells on different trucks/wheel sizes. I remember that the author had used front-view black silhouettes to show the side-by-side size comparison. It's driving me nuts that I can't remember where I saw that. Ring a bell with anybody???

Cheers,

TJ

[Reckers]

This presents the best argument I can offer that interchangeable shells are not likely. It may be possible, but it's gonna be one ugly, disproportionate moose:

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr174/reckandstep/Model%20Railroading/model-railroad-gauges-and-scales.jpg

[SkyArcher]

My Royal Blue may actually be an S scale engine that runs on O Gauge track. Or vis a versa for Tim's Royal Blue.

I personally don't think that the Royal Blue was made to scale so the shell was designed to run on either O gauge or S gauge track.

Does anybody have a link to specs for the prototype engine?

[Stillakid]

C&P from........

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/American_Flyer


During Summer, 1942 Gilbert (as were many manufacturing companies) was compelled by Federal wartime restrictions to cease manufacturing (and even servicing!)its electric train and other metal consumer products. It did not again publish American Flyer catalogs until 1946. The manufacturing hiatus offered the company the opportunity to further differentiate the products from those of the market leaders (by sales volume)Marx and Lionel. By Summer, 1945 it was able to resume limited manufacturing of the 3/16s scale O gauge trains. While it did so, the same sized products were re-engineered to run on much more realistic two rail (with a "T" profile rail) track. The fine detail of the diecast engines, tenders and cars that had debuted in the '39 catalog reappeared. The engines and tenders continued to be made of diecast metal, but the cars' bodies were made out of plastic. Two pages of the spectacular 1946 catalog emphasize the running advantages of the lighter cars. Ironically, they soon realized that they had to add weight. Metal car bottoms & chassis were necessary to prevent the too-light cars from tipping over. The 'link & pin' automatic couplers that had been introduced on the 3/16s O products were reduced in size, with plastic replacing the sintered metal of the originals. They too, later had metal weights added because they would fail to descend to the locking position needed for cars to couple. The chugging mechanisms of the premium O gauge tenders were redesigned to also generate smoke, which was conveyed to the engines' smokestacks via a black rubber tube that protruded out of the rear of the cab so that it could connect to the front of the tender.

And the best part.......................

Because of the relatively accurate scale of the rolling stock and two rail track, these trains (not yet referred to as "S" gauge by Gilbert) were significantly more realistic than their 3 rail O gauge counterparts.

[tjcruiser]

Hey Jim,

Not to burst your bubble, but isn't that quote/reference above verbatim the same wiki quote/reference I included in Post #2 above, starting with "By summer, 1945 ..."

Maybe there's an echo in here ?!? :rolleyes:;) :laugh:

Back to the question at hand, I think SkyArcher might have it pegged:

I personally don't think that the Royal Blue was made to scale so the shell was designed to run on either O gauge or S gauge track.

I still gotta dig for that silhouette O/S comparison that's in my mind from somewhere. Reck ... it looked sort of like the one you posted, but it specifically showed both O and S trucks (I think) on the same shell.

Very interesting question ...

Cheers,

TJ

[Reckers]

*ROTFLMAO!!!* Tim, I was thinking that while the O shell on the S frame might not be a Big Boy, it most certainly would pass muster as a Fat Boy!

[Reckers]

Jim,

That's interesting stuff. What it seems to say was this: the O gauge was revamped from O gauge 3-rail to O gauge 2 rail. This is not a desperate attempt on my part to be right; I'm simply offering my understanding of what is cited. It's still possible, as SkyArcher suggests, that the RB 3-rail O gauge shell was remodeled to two-rail O gauge, and again to S scale---I'm not saying it wasn't, as I don't know. I am offering the observation, though, that it would be like trying to pass off a manatee as a leopard seal and I don't think they'd have been able to sell them. Or get anyone to admit to having one.

[Reckers]

Teej,

I'm very interested in seeing that, if you run across it. Incidentally, I asked my LHS guy to see if he could find me a coil and brushes for the 372. I tried you compass-test and the old coil flunked! Even with replacing the coil, etc, I seem to have done okay on the deal; I've been watching them on ebay and they are consistently selling for over $100, plus shipping.

[Stillakid]

Yeah, but I noticed how you left out the most "Important" part:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[tjcruiser]

Jim,

Did I? Give those glasses a clean, huh? ;)

Good question! I don't know a definitive answer, but this was the case with some early AF S locos. Wikipedia offers this:

" ... Because of the relatively accurate scaleof the rolling stock and two rail track, these trains (not yet referred to as "S" gauge by Gilbert) were significantly more realistic than their 3 rail O gauge counterparts."



Just pokin' fun,

TJ

[big ed]

Ed, you're right about the size of O gauge--American O gauge, anyway. i was sleepy when I wrote that and mis-spoke. My error acknowledged, I'd point out O gauge is actually all over the board:


United Kingdom
British O Gauge

British outline 0 gauge model railway at Kew Pumping Station
Scale per foot: 7 mm to 1ft
Scale ratio: 1:43.5
Gauge: 32 mm
Prototype Gauge: Standard gauge

In the United Kingdom, O gauge equipment is produced at a scale of 1:43.5, which is 7 mm to the foot (using the common British practice of modelling in metric prototypes originally produced using Imperial measurements). It's often called 7 mm scale for this reason.


I posted that so I could pretend I was partly right!


Well I am not in Britain. I am in the U S of A.:D

A lot of the cars and trucks they sell for O/27 modeling are 1/43 scale. I think the plasticville buildings are too.

TJ, I admit that I can be wrong and might be wrong on this. Having seen a lot of O gauge trains, though, while seeking the elusive S scale at train shows, there's a very obvious difference in size. Even my girlfriend, who has yet to touch a transformer, can visually distinguish between the two. When we recently went through several....okay, hundreds of antique stores while vacationing, she'd matter-of-factly walk up to me and tell me she'd found some American Flyer for me to come see. My money is riding on the two shells being distinctly different.


You "trained" her good Reck.:thumbsup::D

Did you "train" her downstairs when the kids weren't there?:laugh:

To my old (young) lady a train is just a train. It doesn't matter what the scale!:rolleyes:

"It's just another !*^#! train......just what you need!":D

[big ed]

I thought American Flyer produced O & S scale trains?:confused:
I even think the made some standard gauge.

[big ed]

Guys:

All your international train talk reminded me of something. Remember when we were kids and the trains all ran around our Christmas trees? Well, if you think back, they all ran around those trees - clockwise! When I was in Australia one year during the holiday season - what do you suppose I saw? Trains running around THEIR Christmas tress; COUNTER-CL0CKWISE!

Okay, you see; in this hemisphere, water runs down the drain...

Oh, Tim. If you have to attach a little note to it.

Regards,
Timboy

I must still be a kid as I have 2 G trains running under my tree every year.:D:thumbsup:

One clockwise and the other counter clockwise.:D

[tjcruiser]

Tim,

Too funny ... the coriolis effect ... on trains! What a hoot!

Now along those same scientific lines ... My kids love riding on merry-go-rounds. And in the US, they all go counterclockwise, right? But there is an exception ... the antique one at StoryLand in NH is a restored European treasure which has horses and dragons that venture on their journey going clockwise.

And then ... last winter, I took my boys to the ice skating rink. We were all skating around counterclockwise. Everyone, that is, except my older boy ... who looked death and destiny straight in the eye ... as he slipped and pushed his way around the rink clockwise!

And, while we all have on our thinking caps ...

Mr. Science tells us that the Earth rotates from East to West, or counterclockwise if looking down from the North Pole.

Now suppose ... just for the sake of discussion, all of us model train guys (I mean ALL of us ... everyone, throughout the world) got out our track and laid them out in an East-West direction. And supposed we all plunked down our best locos on our tracks with the locos facing East. All of them ... every one, facing East. Then, in perfect synchronized harmony, we all throttled up our transformers to the "Full Tilt Boogie" setting, and let those locos rip.

OK ... I know what you're all thinking ... TJ's gone off the deep end (again!) ... where could he possibly be going with this one ...

Well ... since you asked ...

Mr. Newton tells us that "for every reaction, there's an equal an opposite reaction." If all of our locos throughout the world were full-tilt-boogie heading East, then they would all simultaneously exert a force on the Earth directed to the West. And maybe ... just maybe ... that force would be big enough to slow the Earth's rotation just a touch. Then maybe just a bit more. And even a bit more after that.

Pretty soon the Earth would stand still, and eventually it would start rotating BACKWARDS! Time itself would reverse! Seconds, minutes, hours, days ... and, yes ... even YEARS would all pass magically in reverse before our eyes. Z and N would disappear in a blink. DCC would cease to exist. Reckers' beloved S would be in its heyday...

And the reverse timeline would continue ...

Lionel prewar / tinplate would soon be the norm. Shiny brass and copper domes. Gleaming litho paint. And look! There's TJ's great-grandfather walking into Madison Hardware Store in NY ... He's buying that 400E freight set and a shiny new 262 loco for only $13.95, wrapping them up ever so carefully, and packing them away gently ... for the pure enjoyment of some someday-to-be-born grandson. A grandson who really likes old Lionel trains. A grandson who ... here on this very night ... has gone completely off the deep end ...

Ahhh ...

Yeah ... that's the ticket ... the coriolis effect ...

TJ

[imatt88]

SKY,

That looks like the Royal Blue I was watching on eBay...:laugh:

BTW, welcome to the forum...:D

Cheers, Ian

[SkyArcher]

SKY,

That looks like the Royal Blue I was watching on eBay...:laugh:

BTW, welcome to the forum...:D

Cheers, Ian

Just bought it off eBay. Don't know what I was thinking...... Anyway, I just got the motor running. :D

[tjcruiser]

Hey Tim, back to the question at hand ...

Is that #350 AF S of yours a Royal Blue??? If so, might you be able to post a picture of it in side-view with a ruler in front, essentially reproducing what Sky did with his O Royal Blue?

Thanks!

TJ

[tjcruiser]

Tim,

Thanks. But ... ya' gotta put the ruler right next to the loco, to avoid the parallax perspective thing. (Your loco is not 4" long, right?)

Not to worry ... but if you happen to have a chance ...

Cheers,

TJ

[imatt88]

Sky,

It was the one I was watching! :laugh:Awesome dude!! Another one saved!

Make sure you post pics as you restore it.

I really like the Royal Blue and the Silver Bullet. I hope to own a couple someday:D:thumbsup:


Cheers, Ian

[Reckers]

Tim, that 4" Royal Blue pic was classic!!! I loved it! Ian, I plan on a Royal Blue someday, myself----it's just going to be down the road. I love the shape of it. Congratulations, Sky!

[SkyArcher]

Thanks Tim, I'm really glad that your Loco is not 4" long :D:laugh:

Here is a direct comparison picture. You can see some casting details that are different between mine and Tim's. Anyway, I've got the shell stripped and you can see some pitting on the lower end of the shell. I will bondo that with JB Weld and sand it down.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4921&stc=1&d=1287851219

Here you can see all the parts. Most of them are ready for primer. Too bad, I can't polish them out and make them shiney.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4922&stc=1&d=1287851217

[SkyArcher]

In case you're wondering, the number on the shell is PA9512.

How many different colors did this engine come in? Got pictures?

[SkyArcher]

Here you can see the chassis. Does anybody have a suggestion on how to remove the wheels without a specialized wheel puller? As you can see, some of the wheels are severely pitted. I'll have to repair or replace them somehow.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4924&stc=1&d=1287874873

[big ed]

I would think that the Royal Blue engine only came in blue?:D

Ask the epoxy man how to fix those wheels.
If anyone can The T man can.:thumbsup:

[big ed]

big ed: hah-hah-hah-hah-hah! True that! However, the same loco was painted red for the circus train and a similar silver bullet was issued with a plastic shell. That silver bullet came out loooooooooooooong before coors beer was invented.
I really don't think that epoxy will hold up in the long run and i can't see any brazing or welding or soldering working either. Maybe what he could do is to file or cut the flanges off completely and epoxy a steel backer on the drive wheels that would act the same as a flange. I dunno. I'd just replace the wheels or get a better chassis.

Timboy

:D but with different numbers,

4926

4928

[big ed]

Whats the difference between these two Royal blue engines?:rolleyes:



4931

4932


Besides one is falling off the track.:laugh:

[big ed]

Big Ed: One is on the top and one is on the bottom.

Timboy


Theres another obvious answer. Can't you see it?:confused:

[SkyArcher]

There is a green #553 loco, What is that?

I do have a lathe and as a last resort I may try to turn the wheels down and/or re rim the wheels.

[big ed]

There is a green #553 loco, What is that?

I do have a lathe and as a last resort I may try to turn the wheels down and/or re rim the wheels.


I can't find any 553? American Flyer?


Hey Reck....look, :D


4933

[SkyArcher]

Whats the difference between these two Royal blue engines?:rolleyes:



4931

4932


Besides one is falling off the track.:laugh:

The RB on the bottom has a different tender. I'm going to guess (remember that I'm a total NOOB here) that the top RB was made by American Flyer and is prewar and the bottom RB is made by Gilbert. My tender is the same as the one on top.

[big ed]

The RB on the bottom has a different tender. I'm going to guess (remember that I'm a total NOOB here) that the top RB was made by American Flyer and is prewar and the bottom RB is made by Gilbert. My tender is the same as the one on top.


The one on top has what they called indented serif lettering.
The one on the bottom has non- indented serif lettering.
Both are American Flyer made by Gilbert.
I don't know the years but one of the engines has what looks like a deeper blue. Thats the one with the indented letters.

You are learning well butterfly.:D

Me too. :D I just found that on the net.
The only S I had was the Casey Jones, Reckers has that now.

[SkyArcher]

Here is a picture of the green bullet nose. This also appears to have a different style of chassis. But the shell looks the same.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4934&stc=1&d=1287880514

[big ed]

Here is a picture of the green bullet nose. This also appears to have a different style of chassis. But the shell looks the same.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4934&stc=1&d=1287880514



Maybe they issued an Army train?
I search but couldn't find a green 553.

[SkyArcher]

BTW Big Ed, Thanks for posting those pictures.

[imatt88]

Yeah, that green one is a mystery...cool tho:thumbsup:

Sky, saw a set of Royal Blue resto decals on eBay today. If you need them, check it out.
Without a wheel puller, I have no idea how your going to replace those drive wheels...good luck with that

Keep the pics coming;)

Cheers, Ian

[tjcruiser]

Gents,

In regards to the earlier question as to whether O and S AF Royal Blues could have shared the same shell, I took the "ruler" shots of Timboy's AF S Royal Blue and scaled it (via ruler ticks) as an overlay to Sky's "new" AF O Royal Blue. Here's the results ... pics are TO SAME SCALE, as far as I could deduce from the ruler reference:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4942&stc=1&d=1287894995

Looks to me like the O is larger, as you guys envisioned. but, to confirm ...

Sky, is that dark green 553 is S ??? If so, snap a pic of that next to your new O.

Sky, you really stripped that baby down to metal quickly. Shell looks great! Pitting looks relatively minor.

Also, in regards to your questions about possible wheel repair. Several guys here on the forum (Stillakid, of special note) have had great success using the FastSteel epoxy putty sticks to yield strong, lasting repairs to metal. You might want to experiment if something like this could fill in and strengthen the pits/voids in your wheels:

http://polymericsystems.com/epoxies-adhesives/epoxy-putty-sticks/faststeel.htm

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

I just noticed a major difference between Tim's RB and mine beside the length. He doesn't have some side windows. I did notice an extra detail on the catwalk under the boiler that would correspond to the chassis mounts.

Stripping was done "In the Bag" with EZ-Off. Thanks to you guys for the tip. I then chucked up some Scotchbrite pads in my Dremel and polished it off.

The Green 553 is not mine. It is a picture that I found on eBay. Notice the windows and the missing boss on the green 553 as well as the pickups under the chassis. The green loco is probably an O scale. I think that I just figured out the numbers. 350, 353 and 356 are S scale and 550,553 and 556 are O scale.

Thanks for the tip on Fast Steel. Sounds exactly like JB Weld and as I'm using some JB Weld to repair the pitting on the shell, I'll try some on the wheels. First I gotta get the wheels off without breaking the wheels or the chassis.

[Stillakid]

In case you're wondering, the number on the shell is PA9512.

How many different colors did this engine come in? Got pictures?

The 350 shell XA9512-B
The 354 Shell XA9512-ARP

The 350 Royal Blue in "S", shell number is XA9512-B (from K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. metal shell-operating headlight-no pullmor-no S&CC-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse unit in boiler-link coupler-Blue paint
(I believe that Timboy added smoke to his )

The 353 in "S", (no schematic in K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. metal/plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor-no S&CC-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse in boiler-link coupler-Red or Yellow paint(circus train?)

The 354 Silver Streak in "S", shell number XA9512-ARP (from K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor-S&CC in boiler-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse-knuckel coupler-Satin Silver paint

The 356 Silver Bullet, (no schematic in K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific-1 pc plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor(or front)-S&CC in boiler-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse-link coupler-Chromed

[SkyArcher]

The 350 shell XA9512-B
The 354 Shell XA9512-ARP

The 350 Royal Blue in "S", shell number is XA9512-B (from K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. metal shell-operating headlight-no pullmor-no S&CC-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse unit in boiler-link coupler-Blue paint
(I believe that Timboy added smoke to his )

The 353 in "S", (no schematic in K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. metal/plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor-no S&CC-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse in boiler-link coupler-Red or Yellow paint(circus train?)

The 354 Silver Streak in "S", shell number XA9512-ARP (from K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific 1 pc. plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor-S&CC in boiler-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse-knuckel coupler-Satin Silver paint

The 356 Silver Bullet, (no schematic in K-Line Manual)
4-6-2 Pacific-1 pc plastic-operating headlight-no pullmor(or front)-S&CC in boiler-sheet metal tender-4 position reverse-link coupler-Chromed

Looks like we need to find a picture of a yellow engine.

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Good call on the S vs. O side windows.

Re: JB Weld vs. FastSteel. Somewhat similar, though my understanding is that FastSteel actually has some metal (filings?) incorporated into it's structural composition. When cured, it files and machines much like a cast metal structure.

Sky & Jim -- Thanks for AF RB loco tag number thoughts ... 300-series = S, 500-series = O.

Jim -- I don't mean to "preach" your experience with FastSteel ... If I recall, you were the one who has used this with much success. Am I steering Sky in a right (or wrong) direction in suggesting that he consider this for his wheel repair?

Cheers,

TJ

[Stillakid]

TJ, I prefer using FastSteel. I think it is easier to work with, hardens in a denser, more workable, finish, takes to grinding/sanding nicely and paints up great!!

[SkyArcher]

JB Weld is also a metal filled epoxy but I'll see if I can find some Fast Steel around here and try it. I live out in the boondocks and the closest train store is 400 miles away so it is hard to find stuff around here without ordering stuff online.

I finally got the wheels off. I used two flat pieces of metal one on each side of the axle under the wheels and rested the metal pieces on a vise and tapped the axles out with a drift. It worked well and I was afraid I was going to have to buy an expensive wheel puller. The parts are now soaking in carburetor dip prior to painting. :D

I'm going to chuck the wheels in my lathe and face off about .005" or so. Any leftover pits will be filled in with Fast Steel or JB Weld.

The picture are of the pitted section of the shell. At one point in it's life, the engine was laying on it's side in water or perhaps the box got it's bottom soaked. Anyway, I filled in the section with JB Weld and sanded it down.

Before:
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4959&stc=1&d=1287935729

After:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4958&stc=1&d=1287935729

[choo choo]

Nice body work! :):thumbsup:

Greg

[imatt88]

Killer job on the body work Sky:thumbsup:

You know, I thought I saw a yellow AF Circus train with that style shell on eBay not to long ago....:dunno:

Right now, I'm watching a red AF Circus train with cars, etc. Starting bid is $75.

The whole set is a little rough, but definately restorable:thumbsup:

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

You're moving fast! Fun to watch, from this perspective.

Do any of you guys know what kind of metal AF used for their castings? That's not aluminum, is it??? (Just curious.)

If you have a Home Depot near you, I'm pretty sure they stock FastSteel. Or perpahs Loews or other well-stocked hardware store.

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Chassis is done. I chucked the wheels in my lathe and just took off a few thousands and then ran emery cloth on them. Four of the six wheels is fine. One has a small nick and the last wheel has some huge pits in the flange that I'm going to try to fill in with Fast Steel. I'll see if it works.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4967&stc=1&d=1287971941

[tjcruiser]

"Holy jumpin' catfish, Batman ... I didn't know you had an atomic-powered chassis and wheel refabricator on your Caped Crusader utility belt! And just in time, too ... our good city Gotham will live to see another day!"


Seriously ... awesome job on the lathe. Are you gonna try to mount those wheels back on the same axles? Do you think you'll get enough grab for a spin-free fit? Just curious ... I did my first wheel pull and remount job recently.

(Or are they already mounted? Hard to tell if there's an axle in there on each set. If so, watch the rotational alignment between the two wheels on the right ... looks a bit off. Though maybe they're not geared together yet ... this AF stuff is WAY over my head! )

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

No No No....I'm not a super hero. :D This isn't the first time I've kit-bashed a train car. However this might be the first time that I've kit bashed a train engine BACK to original condition.:rolleyes:

The wheels not pressed together yet and I don't think there will be a problem since they're splined.

Only one of the wheel sets is geared but I do have to make sure that they're quartered when I do press them together. I'll press them together when I fix the flange on one of the wheels.

[SkyArcher]

BTW the answer to your last question,

Diecast is made of Zamak which is an alloy of aluminum, magnesium and zinc,

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

[SkyArcher]

Those wheels are probably why they invented Pulmor wheels. :D

[T-Man]

What a difference !
Normally I need repro wheels since the originals crack.
I was wondering how you got the metal to turn on a lathe. Zamak,:thumbsup:

If the engine has weight it will pull.

[Reckers]

Very impressive!:appl:

[tjcruiser]

Diecast is made of Zamak which is an alloy of aluminum, magnesium and zinc,

See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamak

Sky,

Thanks for the info/link ... excellent!!!

Zink + Aluminum + Magnesium + Kupfer (German for Copper) = ZAMAK

Wiki article says NJ Zinc Co. used an ultrapure zinc base in their proprietary version of this "white metal", which improved corrosion characteristics.

(See that, Big Ed ... another New Jersey innovation !!!)

Thanks!!

TJ

[Reckers]

I can't find any 553? American Flyer?


Hey Reck....look, :D


4933

Beautiful locomotive, Ed! I've got one just like it!

We've been running around so much lately, I've gotten waaay behind on the posts!

[Reckers]

Timboy, the solution is so obvious I can't believe you overlooked it. Just crack the sand lines open a little bit and she'll grab those rails!

[T-Man]

With your talent, groove a drive wheel for a rubber tire.

[Reckers]

Reck: Now why didn't I think of that! Instead, I meticulously glued a thin strip of indoor/outdoor carpet on the very tops of all the track rails - for traction. After I was done with the 1 scale mile length of track I have, I discovered that the tender pick-up wheels couldn't get any voltage from the track. Dang it! Sometimes I just don't think things through far enough! Why oh why don't I just slow down and think, "What would Reckers do?".
Timboy

Because you'd end up starting a layout and quitting to tear it up and relocate before you finished! Stick with "What would Timboy do" and it will go a lot faster!

[SkyArcher]

I've seen Timboy's layout....it looks really nice!


Last night, I finished repairing the one wheel. The local hardware store didn't have any Fast Steel so I went ahead and used JB Weld. Pressed the wheels on the chassis and hooked up the motor. My eunit is junk so I bypassed the eunit for now.

I know that you guys think that I'm full of it so Here is a Youtube link. Pay no mind to the lazy dog.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW4-IYwkqUo

Here you can see the wheel repair on the front wheel. The back wheel may still need to be repaired. So far the JB Weld is holding up. :D

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4976&stc=1&d=1288095965

[SkyArcher]

With your talent, groove a drive wheel for a rubber tire.

That's a good idea! I'll wait till the engine is done and I can see what kind of pulling power it has.

[Stillakid]

Sky, not that you need this, but I've never seen or heard of one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/American-Flyer-PreWar-O-Ga-564-CHUGGER-TENDER-VG-DEAL-/130447819698?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e5f4bc3b2

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

That's GREAT news that you got the motor running again ... well done!

Now, if you'll indulge me, I gotta go into "only kidding mode" ... got that ... emphasis on the "only kidding" part ...

That's gotta be the worst video I've ever seen! (Except for the cute/droopy dog part, of course.) Dark shadows ... a fleeting blur of motion ... pan back to dark shadows. It did have me laughing, though!

(This is the part where I freely confess that I couldn't make a video and post it to YouTube if my life depended on it. Whatever grade you get, I get an F.)

Cheers,

TJ

[Reckers]

If the Reckers were truly wise, "Even Reckers could do this!" would not be the acknowledged gauge of Level 1 Difficulty.

[SkyArcher]

Sky,

That's GREAT news that you got the motor running again ... well done!

Now, if you'll indulge me, I gotta go into "only kidding mode" ... got that ... emphasis on the "only kidding" part ...

That's gotta be the worst video I've ever seen! (Except for the cute/droopy dog part, of course.) Dark shadows ... a fleeting blur of motion ... pan back to dark shadows. It did have me laughing, though!

(This is the part where I freely confess that I couldn't make a video and post it to YouTube if my life depended on it. Whatever grade you get, I get an F.)

Cheers,

TJ

Tj, My feelings aren't hurt. I got excited and grabbed my cellphone and I agree that Steven Spielberg has nothing to worry about. :D

But you did see the loco running lickily split around the track, huh!! Did ya? Now I gotta repair or replace my eunit and order some more parts.

[SkyArcher]

Sky, not that you need this, but I've never seen or heard of one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/American-Flyer-PreWar-O-Ga-564-CHUGGER-TENDER-VG-DEAL-/130447819698?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e5f4bc3b2

That is pretty cool. That would look good behind your current project loco....maybe:rolleyes:

[Reckers]

Sky, I just watched your video and I have to admit, that blur was grabbing traction like a squirrel with a cat behind it! Nice job and excellent workmanship!

And...by the way...I don't think anyone here thought you were full of it. You're obviously a craftsman and were determined to make it work. I love seeing an old one come back to life!

[Reckers]

Sky,

That's GREAT news that you got the motor running again ... well done!

Now, if you'll indulge me, I gotta go into "only kidding mode" ... got that ... emphasis on the "only kidding" part ...

That's gotta be the worst video I've ever seen! (Except for the cute/droopy dog part, of course.) Dark shadows ... a fleeting blur of motion ... pan back to dark shadows. It did have me laughing, though!

(This is the part where I freely confess that I couldn't make a video and post it to YouTube if my life depended on it. Whatever grade you get, I get an F.)

Cheers,


TJ


Teej,

I recently upgraded my cell phone. Now I have one I'm not sure how to turn on to answer, that will do short videos. I know it will do the videos because, in trying to get it to stop ringing recently, I video'd my left foot.

[tjcruiser]

... I video'd my left foot.


And your mouth? They weren't in the same frame, were they? :laugh::rolleyes::laugh:

(Couldn't resist. I'm being a cheeky-bugger today, aren't I ?!?)

TJ

[tjcruiser]

Back to more serious stuff, and in regards to the original question about AF O vs. S ...

I think I found my source for what I had once read about AF using the same shell tooling for both O and S, at least in the late 1940's period. A book called "Classic Toy Trains" by Gerry and Janet Souter. I take no claim that what they write is gospel, but here's a few points they offer ... comments in brackets [] are my additions:

"Prewar 3/16-inch-scale cars and locos [initially running on O-gage track] had been adapted to run on the narrower two-rail track [eventually called S]. Looking at a prewar AF diecast loco head-on compared to a postwar versin reveals a production shortcut: Flyer was using the same dies for items in its postwar S gauge line that had been carried over from the prewar [O-gage] line. Although the running gear had been made narrower for the two-rail S gauge track, the car bodies and locomotive shells retained their three-rail widths."
Here's an example that they offer ... AF Northerns ... both 3/16" scale, but O-gage on the left, and S-gage on the right:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4979&stc=1&d=1288125457

That said, I do NOT now think that this "shared shell tooling" applies to the Royal Blue. AF's O-gage Royal Blue debuted in 1940 (I think). The S-gage Royal Blue debuted in 1948. While the book's authors tout both as being built generally to a scale of 3/16" to the foot, Tim and Sky's photos and comparisons here in this thread do show some size differences (smaller S), as well as the differences in the cab windows, already noted.

Anyway ... if you'll patiently indulge this follow-up of mine, the AF O vs. S reference that I had read (but forgot where) a while back was gnawing at me. I think I've now found it, and posted the key point here.

Again ... not gospel. Any contradictions from anyone?

Cheers,

TJ

[Rich_Trains]

TJ,

Is it the angle the photo was taken, or does the boiler front and cow catcher on the Northern on the left look a bit wider?

Rich

[tjcruiser]

Rich,

Both are the same size. To check, I used a photo editor to cut-n-paste the boiler front and cowcatcher from one loco and superimpose it on the other ... exactly the same.

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for that information, TJ. I'd like to get my greasy hands on a S-Scale Royal Blue shell and directly compare the shells with each other.

[tjcruiser]

Thanks for that information, TJ. I'd like to get my greasy hands on a S-Scale Royal Blue shell and directly compare the shells with each other.

... with camera in hand, right?!? :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Reckers]

I used Timboy's ruler and confirmed it: they are both 10" wide.

[T-Man]

Sky, not that you need this, but I've never seen or heard of one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/American-Flyer-PreWar-O-Ga-564-CHUGGER-TENDER-VG-DEAL-/130447819698?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item1e5f4bc3b2


I believe, I have one transplanted (long ago) in a Lionel tender.

[tjcruiser]

I used Timboy's ruler and confirmed it: they are both 10" wide.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Reck ... that was so brilliantly subtle, that I had to read your post twice before I burst out laughing! It's only 10:22 AM here in RI, but you get my vote for today's Stand Up Comic award!

(Now, I just hope I'm not the only one who "get's it"!)

TJ

[Reckers]

Thank you, gentlemen, but credit goes to Timboy----all I did was snatch an extra laugh out of his joke!

[SkyArcher]

What kind of engine is the Royal Blue modeled after?

[Stillakid]

Sky, I believe that the design was inspired by the works of Henry Dreyfuss. If you "Wiki" him, there's tons of info. I know the Lionel 221 was a copy of his work.

"Locomotive and Exterior
Of Dreyfuss's railroad designs, the locomotives got the most notice, so much so that his work on passenger cars is often overlooked entirely.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(NYC)#cite_note-8) For the Mercury, he achieved a streamlined appearance by covering the exterior pipes, whistles, and other fittings in a smooth "bathtub" cowl. The sides of the cowl were cut away to show the driving wheels.
"The ... drivers sported centers painted in aluminum with a black band separating the aluminum discs from the aluminum rim and tire. Dreyfuss had installed three 50-watt and two 15-watt lamps under the cowling on either side to illuminate the drivers and rods. The effect at night was most striking.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(NYC)#cite_note-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(NYC)#cite_note-10)
It has been said that, "As opposed to [some of his] contemporaries, Dreyfuss was not a stylist: he applied common sense and a scientific approach to design problems."[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(NYC)#cite_note-11) However, it can be seen from his treatment of the driving wheels that Dreyfuss was not above paying close attention to merely stylistic, non-functional details."

[Stillakid]

The Lionel 221 & the NYC Hudson...........


5046

5047

[Reckers]

Let me introduce an alternative answer: the original Royal Blue.

http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr174/reckandstep/Trains/BO_Royal_Blue_in_1937.jpg

The Royal Blue was actually a series of trains; more correctly, "Royal Blue" describes a particular scheduled run with a high level of amenities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Blue_(train)

[SkyArcher]

!!WOW!! :eek:

[tjcruiser]

Reck --

That's a fabulous photo. I think Big Ed (???) had posted that some months back (in a "bridge" discussion?). One of my favorite shots.

Jim -- Lots of streamliner variants. The Lionel 221 is based on the Henry Dreyfuss designed New York Central "Twentieth Century Limited", as you say. But there were many other somewhat similar designs. Ray Loewy is noted for his K-4's and S-1's.

For those interested, this website (a jitterbug dance group, of all things!) has one of the best streamliner history summaries I've seen:

http://www.jitterbuzz.com/stream.html

The Royal Blue streamlining was designed by Otto Kuhler, who also designed the Hiawatha trains.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Kuhler

Remember that most of these streamliner designs were simply "skins" applied over the tops of traditional steam locos.

Cheers,

TJ

[Reckers]

TJ, you're correct; as always, Ed leads and the rest of us follow in his ancient footsteps. *L*

That acknowledged, the "Royal Blue" name is attributed to that specific locomotive design because of model railroading: we all know it as "THE" Royal Blue, a uniquely recognizable design. However, the Royal Blue Line was from New York to DC and began running (B&O) in 1890 with conventional steam engines: from a real-life standpoint, it was an assortment of locomotives and cars that spanned generations.

From Wikipedia:

The B&O was not entirely satisfied with the ride quality of the lightweight Royal Blue train, however, and replaced it on April 25, 1937, with streamlined, refurbished heavyweight equipment, painted light gray and royal blue with gold striping, designed by Otto Kuhler. The train was pulled by the first streamlined diesel locomotive, B&O # 51, the 3,600 h.p. EMC EA/EB model built by Electro Motive Company. Praised for its beauty and handsome profile, this first streamlined production model diesel "dazzled the press and public", said one magazine writer of the groundbreaking locomotive's introduction.[5][19] Kuhler also streamlined one of B&O's 4-6-2 "Pacific" steam locomotives for use on the Royal Blue.[24] Its bullet-shaped shroud became an iconic image for the Royal Blue and was modeled for years by American Flyer. Time magazine, in reporting on the precarious financial condition of the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad and other Depression-ravaged rail lines in 1937, referred to the B&O's "swashbuckling" Royal Blue streamliner launched that year as having "symbolize[d] the new era in railroading ..." [25]

[SkyArcher]

The thing that I find interesting is that the quoted Wiki article says that the Royal Blue engine was painted royal blue with gold striping.

The AF Royal Blue is blue with white striping.

Sooooo....when I repaint the model, do I stay true to the original AF paint scheme or to the prototype?:confused:

[Reckers]

Sky, let me cite Rule #1 of model railroading: "On any layout, the "right" way is the way the layout's owner wants to do it. No other opinion matters."


So...just to offer some input to help you arrive at your decision: are you modeling the Royal Blue run between New York and DC, or are you restoring an American Flyer locomotive? If you are restoring a toy train, you are attempting to return it to it's original glory, and that would require white paint. On the other hand, if you envision using this locomotive to re-create the Royal Blue Line, you'd want the blue-and-gold livery, B&O markings, etc. It's all in what you want to accomplish. And Timboy, thank you for your kind words! Though I'm far from expert in this field, I do enjoy talking trains. You've been at this far longer than I have and know a lot more than I do about it.

[tjcruiser]

Good comments, guys. Well said, re: restoration options.

On my end, I've now restored a couple of Lionel prewar 1681 locos. After some thinking, I went with original paint colors, but ...

I opted to add a little, subtle gold pinstripe around the inner perimeter of the steam chests. It was certainly NOT something that was original to the Lionel locos, and purists are likely screaming. But, I like it, and it adds a bit of a personalized "TJ touch". Reck's Rule takes precident ... I'm happy, so it's a good choice ... I think!

TJ

[T-Man]

I like Recker's rule. When the TCA Purists get together for a lynch mob. We can point them to his house!:D Opps, resisdence.

[Reckers]

*LOL* Funny you should mention them, Bob! A few days ago, on another site, a collector/TCA member was decrying how bad York had been....followed it by blaming it on operators that had become TCA members, and then complained the organization's membership was dwindling. I was unkind to him, in response. I told him that there was no great leap of logic to understand that when you're a snob and blame the new blood you are trying to enroll for the problems you already had, it tends to discourage new members and your numbers shrink...duh!!!

[imatt88]

I agree with Reckers on this one. Rebuild it the way you want to.

I look at it this way, another vintage train saved from the trash:thumbsup:

[SkyArcher]

Right now I've got the paint and the parts on order. I was running the engine last night and there sure were a lot of sparks. I know that once I get the trailing wheels and the pilot wheels installed then there will be more contact points and less sparks on the wheels. I'm trying to figure out right now how to add another center rail pickup.

I'll hold off on the gold vs white till I get there.

[big ed]

Right now I've got the paint and the parts on order. I was running the engine last night and there sure were a lot of sparks. I know that once I get the trailing wheels and the pilot wheels installed then there will be more contact points and less sparks on the wheels. I'm trying to figure out right now how to add another center rail pickup.

I'll hold off on the gold vs white till I get there.


I don't think it will matter with the other wheels, it will still spark till you fix it.

[Stillakid]

Sky, you could always just add roller pick-up trucks to the tender(and maybe some weight, too)

[SkyArcher]

Sky, you could always just add roller pick-up trucks to the tender(and maybe some weight, too)

How do you do that?

[Stillakid]

Sky, I don't have the photos available(in the old hard drive), but I have several lighted passenger cars (1930's) that all have the pick-up assemblies. That might be your best bet. eBay old AF cars that are in poor shape, but do have trucks that are intact. The conversion should be pretty simple:)
Hope that helps

Here is another option.........................
http://cgi.ebay.com/American-Flyer-Prewar-O-Gauge-Power-Tender-Car-564-/160499496171?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item255e83f4eb

[Reckers]

Sky, sparking is an indicator of an electrical circuit being broken and reconnecting continually as you go around the track. The cure is to clean and polish. Before I go any further, NO SANDPAPER AND NO STEEL WOOL. Sandpaper makes minute scratches that add to the sparking problem; steel wool sheds tiny metal fragments that are attracted to the magnetic field of your locomotive with disasterous results. First, unplug the transformer. Use a plastic scouring pad with some Goo-Gone (Walmart) to clean all the buildup from the rails, top surface and inner surfaces. Chase that with Isopropyl alcohol on a paper towel.
Next, use the same process to clean your wheels and the copper axle pickups. If the goop won't come off or they're really thick with crud, use a Dremel with a cotton polishing wheel. Soak that wheel in Goo-Gone, if needed. The idea is to get these guys down to shiny metal.
Keeping the rails smooth and polished is important. Sanding them will only create thousands of minute sparks from all those scratches, sparks on both the wheels and the rails. Every spark deposits carbon and bakes on any oil present. Cleanliness is next to Reckliness.

[big ed]

It can be worn out rollers.
Or the track connections, make sure they are tight.

Make sure that the pins are not corroded and are nice and shiny.
The inside of the rail where the pins insert should be corrosion free too.

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for the tips on cleaning the track.

I think that most of the sparking problems is specific to the RB loco that I'm restoring ie I was running the loco without trailing and pilot wheels which provide more contact points. I also have new brushes and springs coming. The sliders are covered with with black gunk that I think I need to remove but they are resisting my gentle attempts to remove it with contact cleaner and scotchbrite. Not to worry, I'll get it all. Just gotta do one part at a time. :)

[tjcruiser]

The sliders are covered with with black gunk that I think I need to remove but they are resisting my gentle attempts to remove it with contact cleaner and scotchbrite.

If it's just bare metal (without chrome or nickel plating), you might try removing the gunk with a small Dremel wire brush wheel ... mild steel, at first (softer), and if that isn't aggressive enough, then the stainless steel brush.

I've been using these Dremel brushes on EVERYTHING, just about. Love 'em!

Cheers,

TJ

[Reckers]

Teej, I'm dubious about wire wheels---can't say I know I'm right, but here's my thinking. They'll surely cut the goop faster, but if the roller is soft steel or copper, I believe they'll also cut the surface. If the surface is marred, the micro-sparking will start laying carbon down on both roller and track. I prefer the polishing wheels and, if needed, some buffing compound to help it along. Buffing compound will scour out the gunk and smooth off the rough edges at the crests of the existing scratches: wire wheels can create a whole new set of scratches in the roller. I can't claim to be an expert or really know what I'm talking about half the time, but I thought I'd throw that out there for you to think about.

[SkyArcher]

I like to cut squares of Scotchbrite and chuck it up in a mandrel and use it in my Dremel. It works very well in cleaning gunk off metal surfaces without damaging the metal surfaces. See the previous picture of the naked RB shell.

Warning, the Scotchbrite will throw off a lot of material so WEAR safety glasses.

[SkyArcher]

This weekend, I managed to acquire two of the cars that I believe are from the original set that my Royal Blue came from. I got the boxcar and a caboose. From my research, the set also included either a tank car or a gondola. I have a query out to see if the guy still has them. From the pictures....yep... they've been played with...alot!! So I'm going to repaint them as well when they get here.

[tjcruiser]

Re: wire brushes, ScotchBrite, buffing pads, and the like ...

I generally agree with all of the comments in the few posts above ... I think the choice of any of those is a matter of a few fundamental things:

1. How much grime / gunk am I trying to remove? If it's really cakes on there, I go for the wire brush to get the top layers of gunk off.

2. How soft is the metal, and/or is there a thin electroplate coating that I'm trying to save?

3. Do I need a buffed or highly polished end-result surface? A pickup roller, for example, would want to be quite smooth.

So, I'd suggest that the choice of tool depends upon various factors. And a given job might entail a mix/match of different tools in stages.

My two cents ...

TJ

[tjcruiser]

Sky ...

Good tip on cutting ScotchBrite squares ... certainly MUCH cheaper than buying the little ScotchBrite-like Dremel disc ... those things are crazy expensive for what they are.

And ... many congrats on tracking down your lost orphans! POST SOME PICS!

TJ

[SkyArcher]

No problem, when the cars get here I'll be sure to post some pictures.

[Reckers]

Timboy, I'm deeply honored. *L* Incidentally, I use "Reckers" instead of Wreckers" for a reason (aside from lack of spelling ability). I used to frequent a chatroom where my pseudonym was Reckless Abandon. One of the ladies nicknamed me Reckers and it kind of stuck. Then I got interested in trains and the first car I bought to add to my existing set was a 944 Brownhoist crane, so then I was really stuck with it!

[tjcruiser]

Reckless Abandon ... I like that.

Somebody was chatting a couple of weeks ago about problems they were having with a train car going over a turnout. They mentioned that the wheels would "jump the frog" as they traveled across the switch. Got me thinking ...

Wouldn't that be a great username for someone? JumpTheFrog !!!

(Royalty payments and licensing fees can be sent directly to the attention of TJCruiser, here at the forum!)

TJ

[Reckers]

*LOL* Teej, I knew a woman at a chatroom who went by Froggie....you sure you want to go with that name?

[SkyArcher]

Just a random name...but give me a minute and I'll think of something more exciting.

[Reckers]

TIm, he's just being shy. He was an early December baby----born beneath the sign of the Sky Archer, Sagittarius.:D And burnish is truly today's word for wheels!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Reckers]

*takes a bow*....thanka very much. We'll be here all week----remember to tip your waitress!

[Stillakid]

Reckers, is Timboy( Some - like Sillakid - are quite obvious.), insulting me?:confused:

[Reckers]

Tim's sorry, Jim....he meant to say oblivious.

[Stillakid]

Reckers, I resemble that!:lol_hitting:

[Reckers]

*LOL* That was soooo easy!!! Thanks for the straight-line!

[tjcruiser]

Surely you can't be serious ...

I am serious ... and STOP calling me Shirley!!! :rolleyes:

[T-Man]

Just a random name...but give me a minute and I'll think of something more exciting.

I would of guessed a fighter pilot.Following the Top Gun craze.

[SkyArcher]

I would of guessed a fighter pilot.Following the Top Gun craze.

I like that story, I'll go with that. :thumbsup:

Today I got an eunit in the mail. It is not the same as the original. I'm going to sleep on it tonight and see if there is a way to combine the parts to get the eunit that I need.

[Stillakid]

Sky, could you post a picture of the e-unit? I have several and perhaps one that would work for you.

Jim

[T-Man]

From what I could tell, if it is tender mounted,it will work. The number of wires may be different.

After some thought an astronomer, Sky, stars, The Archer Sagittarius, unless you are into Harry Potter then it's the centaur archer.

[Reckers]

The T-Man hath spoken. All hail the T-Man!!!

[SkyArcher]

Freud says "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"

Attached is a picture of the eunit. The original boiler mounted eunit is at top. Note the inline drum. This unit is pretty rusted and the drum is trashed.

At the bottom is a eunit that I got. It has a horizontal drum and the mounting holes are in a different place.

I'm going to try to clean the original frame as best as I can and see if I can swap parts between the two eunits to get a good working eunit.

What I wonder is if the bottom eunit works better and would be worth retrofitting instead?

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5128&stc=1&d=1288789191

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

First time for me seeing inside an AF e-unit. The drum and fingers are very similar to Lionel, huh?

Thanks for sharing the pics ... good luck with repair / part-swapping.

TJ

[SkyArcher]

I first cleaned and assembled the older e-unit. The coil read 6 ohms but when I applied power to it, it buzzed. So I took it apart and cleaned and reassembled the newer e-unit. This coil read 18 ohms and clicked nicely without buzzing. One of the brushes has a hole in it where it contacts the drum so next I'm going to perform micro surgery and replace the finger with another finger from the older e-unit. I think that I can make this fit the chassis without too much trouble.

Is it sacrilegious to replace the cloth covered wires with modern stranded wire?

Fun stuff, resurrecting old beatup trains.

[Reckers]

Sky, the only sacrilege in my belief system is an act of wilful destruction. I include in that the practice of chopping repairable locomotives into parts for resale because individual parts can be sold for a higher price than the repaired locomotive, but that's just me. Replacing with modern wiring is just good sense, on par with rewinding a burned-out coil or changing caked-up grease. Sounds like you've got quite a bit of experience in working on trains---nice to have you around!

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Good luck with the finger surgery! I'm giving you a bit atta-boy pat on the back for taking the time to try to breathe some life back into these (or at least one of) these old e-units. Another terminal patient saved!

I've done a bit of motor rewiring now, and have used both modern braided wire, along with reproduction cloth-covered single strand. Pros and cons to each ... modern stuff comes in different colors (for easy circuit identification), and is cheap. Repro stuff is more expensive, but I find (with my limited skills) that it's easier to solder the single-strand cloth repro wire.

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

I just scored some cloth covered wire from a guy who restores military jeeps. :cool:

I want to use stranded wire because they're less likely to fatigue and break from handling or running. Some of the fiberboards on the e-unit looks pretty fragile and soldering stranded wire to them would provide some stress relief.

Wish me luck tonight when I try to transplant some fingers......:eek:

[Reckers]

Try not to damage the original fingers. Replacements for those 10 are hard to come by.

[SkyArcher]

Two cars from the original set showed up in the mail today :D A 478 Box car and a 484 Caboose. They both have spent a LOT of time in the toy box. Here are some pictures of both both of them. Don't they look sad and pathetic? :(

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5168&stc=1&d=1288920012

In case you're wondering what scale these "O" Scale cars are. Here is a picture of the cars next to O Scale cars.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5170&stc=1&d=1288920013

I think that this picture proves that American Flyer cars are actually S scale cars with O gauge trucks.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5171&stc=1&d=1288920013

The caboose is now in the stripper.:eek:

[SkyArcher]

Stripped Caboose.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5172&stc=1&d=1288923083

[SkyArcher]

Painted Caboose. :D

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5174&stc=1&d=1288926923

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5175&stc=1&d=1288926923

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

"S-scale cars on O-gage trucks" ... exactly ... echoing loco photo in Post #81, too. Nice side-by-side comparison on your end.

I gotta say ...

I always have fun watching the action down at the strip club. Hubba hubba. Shiny. Sweet. Me like. Hubba hubba.

Easy Off and Dremel brush? Metal looks to be in nice shape.

Are AF trucks rivetted on? Did you drill 'em out? What will you do there ... screw and nut in its place? (That's what I've been doing on my Lionels.)

Cheers,

TJ

[tjcruiser]

Primer under the red?

What type of paint (Krylon, Rustoleum, etc.) ???

Looks great!

[SkyArcher]

The trucks were riveted on and I drilled them out. I don't know yet how I'm going to reinstall them.

The paint is well..... I can't give away ALL my secrets. ;) :D

But I'll give you a hint...it's not rattle can.....

[tjcruiser]

Ohhh ...

Airbrush boy, huh???

(I'm jealous, of course.)

[SkyArcher]

Don't be jealous, I didn't use an airbrush.

[SkyArcher]

Actually I'm trying out a new/different paint process and sometimes it horribly doesn't work on diecast. So I want to try it first and be the guinea pig.

[T-Man]

There's only one paint process left for metal.

As far as track goes, AF had a two rail O?

[Reckers]

That is correct, and S cars (briefly) on O gauge track, as Sky points out. AF went from O gauge three rail to O gauge two rail while simultaneously experimenting with S scale cars on O track and trucks---stuff turned up with Sky's new arrivals. WWII froze further development, but after the war, S scale with it's own trucks and track was launched. All new information to me!

[SkyArcher]

That's interesting. My cars definitely would not run on two rails as the wheels are not electrically isolated.

[Reckers]

You come up with some mighty interesting stuff, Archer!

[tjcruiser]

There's only one paint process left for metal.


:confused:

Brush on, which I doubt he did, or ...

One of those inexpensive propellent sprayers that you fill up with your own few ounces of paint? Propelled via a little (replaceable) aeresol can. Something like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Preval-Spray-Power-Unit-Container/dp/B001ENSKUY/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1288977187&sr=8-13

What did he use ???

TJ

[Reckers]

Electrostatic painting.

[SkyArcher]

Reckers is very very very close.

Yeah, I'm powder coating with a Craftsman powdercoating gun and baking the parts in a dedicated toaster oven. It's non toxic, solvent free, smell free and easy cleanup. You'll get a strong durable paint job that is cured and ready to go within a half an hour. The only problem with powercoating is that the parts has to be able to withstand baking at 400 degs. Diecast parts are very porous so SOMETIMES they tend to outgass at 400 deg and bubble the paint. And you can't powder coat plastic parts.

I'll do a mini tutorial tonight so you can see how it's done.

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Uhhh ... what's your postman's name? I'll be sending you all of my tinplate parts. Keep your eyes open for the deliveries.

:thumbsup::D:thumbsup:

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Sure, I'll take your tinplate...


wait, did you want them back???

[T-Man]

B I N G O spells Bingo.

Of course you can't do parts that are soldered like my 612 and 610 coaches. It should look great on the engines. I didn't know about the craftsman model.

[SkyArcher]

Deleted

[Stillakid]

Neat info on Powder Coating....................

http://www.finishing.com/Library/pennisi/powder.html

[SkyArcher]

I take it back. Solder can melt at 400 degs. Just found out. There are low temp powders out there if you need them. As I'm typing here, my parts are cooking....wait for it. ... :D

[T-Man]

The solder isn't that common, those coaches are early 1920's. You have the side joint and the overhread brace to deal with.

[SkyArcher]

Here is a mini tutorial on powdercoating train parts.

First, the powder coating gun, This is a Craftsman powder coating gun. Sears has discontinued the gun but you may be able to find it on eBay. Harbor Freight has an inexpensive powdercoating gun avaiable. Here it is loaded and ready to go!!

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5200&stc=1&d=1289060759

The victim. The part needs to be stripped of all paint, derusted and then cleaned very well with a solvent. Spray carb cleaner works for me. Then the part has to be pre baked for about 10 minutes at 400 degs. This will burn off any residual solvent and moisture as well as any material that probably should not be there. Let the part cool enough to handle but try not to handle the part any more than you have to. Fingerprints will show up under the powder.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5197&stc=1&d=1289060759

Normally I use a metal hook to hang my parts and attach the grounding clip to the hook. But because the shell doesn't have any holes, I'm hanging the part directly off the clip.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5198&stc=1&d=1289060759

The grounding clip is attached directly to the powder gun. The electrostatic charge generated by the gun is what attracts the powder to the metal part. In the picture you can see the part covered with uncured powder.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5201&stc=1&d=1289060759

The part in my dedicated toaster oven. I found this toaster oven at a thrift store for $5. DO NOT USE YOUR REGULAR FOOD TOASTER OVEN!! The food will taste funny. :eek: Bake at about 400 degs for 20 minutes. Open the door and let cool.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5202&stc=1&d=1289060759

Let the part cool. And voila!! As you can see, I was also successful with the diecast engine shell. Whoo Hoo!! Diecast parts can be a hit or miss. I had one diecast carburator part bubble up horribly because the part was so porous that the diecast outgassed during the heat curing.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5199&stc=1&d=1289060759

[SkyArcher]

In case you're wondering, powder coated paint is not as smooth and level as it would be with liquid paint. I normally use powder coating for parts that are not cosmetic like body work. If you need the part to be cosmetically perfect then a liquid paint would be better. In this case, I'm justifying using powder coating because the train is going to be an operator train and powdercoat is much more durable than regular paint. Powder coating can be rubbed out if you need that smooth level coat.

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Very interesting. Pros and cons, I guess. Durable, but not as smooth and glossy, as you say. I've always been impressed with the durability of some textured powdercoat finishes on several power tools that I have. Drop 'em onto concrete with barely the slightest chips.

From what you know, how does powdercoat (on bare metal) hold up for long-term rust inhibiting? There's no primer involved, but then again, you're bonding and baking the "paint" more directly to the metal itself. Good long term rust proofing? Anyone?

What's the availability of range of powder colors? Can you blend for a custom shade?

Neat option ... thanks much for sharing. Royal Blue is bucking at its reins ... ready to go running!

TJ

[imatt88]

Wow:eek: Cool:thumbsup:

[SkyArcher]

Powdercoat will do a good job of rust proofing as long as the original seal is not broken ie scratches. You also must prep the metal with some type of phosphate wash such as Evapo Rust to remove all residual rust. Otherwise any residual rust will continue to grow under the powder coat.

There really is no need for primer. The main job of primer is to help the color coat bond to the metal. Baking does the same thing. You can get a primer powder paint for body working or as an undercoat for liquid paint.

You can't really mix shades of powder coat. You can try but it doesn't quite work the same way as liquid paint. In other words if you mix red and blue together, you're not really going to get purple. You're going to get red and blue speckles that look like purple if you squint your eyes.

Check out the color palette here at:

https://www.columbiacoatings.com/

BTW Powder coating is easier to use than Krylon.

And Royal Blue is getting there. I still have some parts coming in the mail.

Now on to the Boxcar!!

[T-Man]

In my best Captain Kirk imitation. Reaching out in a dramatic scene.

Need. Toaster. Must. get. timer. Spock. help!

Transmission turns to static, scene ends.

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Keep an eye on that T-Man guy ... word on the street is that he's eyeing that toaster-oven of yours, thinking about grabbing your temp/timer and leaving the thing propped up on cinder blocks!

On a serious note, I'm really impressed with the number and variants of colors offered on that powder website. Is that "Cloud Blue" on the loco? Do you buy your stock online? That's not something you can grab at your local Home Depot or hardware store, is it? What sort of size/price to do a few small jobs like your loco and tender and such?

(Lots of questions, but this is all new to me and pretty enticing.)

Thanks,

TJ

[T-Man]

I am glad you used a cast shell. I would be concerned about heating an older shell. Some of the earlier Lionel's are fragile I wonder what 400 degrees would do, if anything. The blue is superb!!

After bagging my limit of LED Dinosaurs, I may go after Reckers doorstop.

[SkyArcher]

The color that I picked is "Ford Dark Blue". I should take it outside so you can see the real color. As near as I can tell, it is a perfect match for Royal Blue. Yeah, I buy it from Columbia Coatings. They have the best service I've met on line. They sent me the wrong color once, told me to keep it and sent me the right color. In three days, too.

Harbor Freight carries some basic colors in their stores.

T-Man, if you touch my toaster oven, I'll rap your knuckles with a wooden spoon. :p Not only did I find a toaster oven for $5 but it has an 60 minute timer. Most toaster ovens only go up to 15 minutes. So this oven is PERFECT for powder coating.

Use your best judgement when deciding if your shell is suitable for power coating.

[SkyArcher]

In my best Captain Kirk imitation. Reaching out in a dramatic scene.

Need. Toaster. Must. get. timer. Spock. help!

Transmission turns to static, scene ends.

What do you need a mechanical timer for?

[SkyArcher]

I've mostly finished painting my cars. I still need to get one more car to complete the set. Either a 482 Log car, 484 Gondola or a 480 Tank car. Or all three :D

And as a bonus the 485 Crane

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5255&stc=1&d=1289173081

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5256&d=1289173081

[T-Man]

What do you need a mechanical timer for?

I use the timer for a block signal. I did it in the Toast Thread.
I lost control when I saw the toaster.


Keep them coming!

[SkyArcher]

Squirted a little Krylon on the tender. Next I'm going to decide how to restore the trucks. The trucks are made of some kind of blackened steel. I don't think that paint will look right. Anybody know how that is done?

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5259&stc=1&d=1289179079

[big ed]

Squirted a little Krylon on the tender. Next I'm going to decide how to restore the trucks. The trucks are made of some kind of blackened steel. I don't think that paint will look right. Anybody know how that is done?


Can you powder coat them too?:dunno:
I think we discussed re doing trucks but I can't find it.

Engine looks great.:thumbsup:

[tjcruiser]

I know that Lionel used a process called "sintering" on it's wheels, and perhaps on some blackened metal, too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintering

That said, I suspect that black powder-coat would look just fine on your trucks. Maybe more of a steel-dark-grey color than pure black?

TJ

[T-Man]

For my trucks I prime and use a flat blackspray.

These were rusted up.
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4965&d=1287970943

[Stillakid]

Sky, I've not tried this yet, but read that it works for trucks. I've used this for several of my pistols and 2 rifles.

http://www.vansgunblue.com/

[Reckers]

Teej, sintering is a process similar to casting, but uses powdered metal instead of molten metal. I've only seen it used in reference to trucks. I've never seen a "We used sintering because..." explanation. As I understand it, the powder is poured into the mold and then heated to just below the melting point, allowing the grains to bond to one another. Prior to sintering, stamped metal was the material of choice.
Sintered trucks are more detailed than the stamped ones. My guess is that, with a powder, you don't get all the voids resultant from air bubbles in the die a casting would have. Dump in powder, shake it to fill all the space and then heat it till it bonds.

As for the color, I have a suggestion. Blacksmiths put a protective, dark coat on iron by heating it red hot and then dipping it in used motor oil. This is an outdoor thing, as there is a brief flame before the metal cools and the flame dies. It bakes a dark coat onto the metal that's charactistic of wrought iron and is somewhat resistant to rust---not unlike an oil-based paint, baked on in a few seconds.

[SkyArcher]

My trucks are stamped steel. Gun bluing sounds like the answer that I was looking for. I'll try it.

[tjcruiser]

Yeah ... I like that gun blue liquid stuff ... I've never seen that before. Neat!

Good tip, Jim!

TJ

[T-Man]

The bluing was also used on some Lionel rolling stock and tender frames. After the corrosion gets to them you don't have a smooth finish so they get the paint.

[SkyArcher]

Some updates. I was able to repair the finger on the e-unit by splicing another finger under the original finger. It went together well and it looks like it will work. It turned out to be easier than I thought to mount the e-unit to the chassis as there were already dimples in the chassis telling me where to drill and tap. Next step is to wire the e-unit and motor together.

I just acquired a 482 log car. I now have a train set. :D Sorry, I forgot to take a picture of it before I disassembled it and threw it in the stripper. Progress pictures will be coming soon.

The trucks are soaking in Evapo Rust to remove all the rust. I have some gun bluing on order and we'll see how it works. If it doesn't work or look good, I'll powder coat them.

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Good news on your end. Glad to hear the finger transplant worked out OK.

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Do you guys know what time it is? It's show and tell time!!

First, I got the gun blue. It is called Birchwood Casey Super blue and it works perfectly. See the picture, the truck on the right has been cleaned and buffed with scotchbrite and the truck on the left has been treated with Super Blue. Worked perfectly!!:thumbsup:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5394&stc=1&d=1289875187

Here is a picture of my Log car #472. Just needs the trucks refinished and new decals.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5396&stc=1&d=1289875187

Now if you got a weak stomach, avert your eyes right now! It's horrible. While I was poking around looking for little misc parts to finish my Royal Blue train set, I found this!!! There is an operating dump car under all that dirt and rust. :):) And it is one of the 4** number series car!! Fits right in my consist!!

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5395&stc=1&d=1289875187

Just gotta clean it up and figure how to make it work.

[T-Man]

Gun HO for Gun Blue!:thumbsup:

[Stillakid]

Sky, nice job on the trucks! I have 2 of the side dump cars and yours will look great based on the work you've already accomplished!

Regards,
Jim

[SkyArcher]

Sky, nice job on the trucks! I have 2 of the side dump cars and yours will look great based on the work you've already accomplished!

Regards,
Jim

So, how do you make them take a dump? :rolleyes:

[Stillakid]

First of, use lots of Metamucil............................:laugh:

Sky, my cars are all S but look exactly the same.
Of the 3 I have, 2 have the same dump mechanism that operates by passing over a section of track with a controller that feeds to the 2 pick-ups in the center mount of the truck. 2 wires, pos & ground.
The other has an arm that makes contact with a section of track with a raised side piece and has 2 metal wheels on one truck. Again, pos & ground.
I wish that I had more info to share regarding "O", but there's just not much out there.:(

Pics of the different mechanisms and the one car that will soon be undergoing a Paint & Pretty!:D

5398

5399

5400

5401

[tjcruiser]

Jim, Sky,

That Gun Blue really intrigues me ... thank you both for the info and examples! Question ... the resulting finish appears (in the posted photos) to lean more towards a true black, rather than a dark blue ... Is that the case in real life?

I've just finished painting (Krylon) another round of prewar Lionel trucks. They look great, but the paint will be subject to chipping, of course. That's why I like the "dyed" idea of a Gun Blue product ... definitely on my "gotta try that" list.

Great info swapping, guys ... thanks for sharing!

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Jim, That is interesting! Mine is actually different. At first, I thought it was a broken spring and I almost cut it off. Then I saw your picture and realized that I have a curb feeler for a power pickup. I'll have to modify my "L" operating track to provide a contact point.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5404&stc=1&d=1289935245

TJ, It's black. Almost a blue-black

[SkyArcher]

Jim, Sky,

That Gun Blue really intrigues me ... thank you both for the info and examples! Question ... the resulting finish appears (in the posted photos) to lean more towards a true black, rather than a dark blue ... Is that the case in real life?

I've just finished painting (Krylon) another round of prewar Lionel trucks. They look great, but the paint will be subject to chipping, of course. That's why I like the "dyed" idea of a Gun Blue product ... definitely on my "gotta try that" list.

Great info swapping, guys ... thanks for sharing!

TJ


TJ, It's black. Almost a blue-black

[Stillakid]

Sky, I'm sure that I've seen these in "O", but if not, you could buy an "S" and modify it for 3-rail!

5405

5406

5407

[tjcruiser]

Gents,

I've never seen those "curb feelers" on an operating car before. Simple. Neat. One-way direction, though, I guess.

Sky, thanks for the color confirmation.

Cheers,

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Thanks for showing me that, Jim.

Ebay doesn't have one ....:(



...yet

[Stillakid]

Sky, seeing the work that you've done, why not make one? You could use a track clip, piece of plastic for the full base, and piece of tin bent at 90* and form the lead edges.
If you decide to do it, let me know and I'll take all the measurements of mine and take a photo of the underside. All you'd need to do is scale it for your setup.

Regards,
Jim

[T-Man]

Shucks, All you need is a Sign That says S Rocks. It would have a metal pole with a spring base and move evertime the car goes by.:cool:

[SkyArcher]

I'm likely going to try to make something and attach it to my "L" operating track. I already have a track for my "O"ther dump cars and I bet I can use the same track and button. :)

Maybe even use Tman's sign post that says "S" Dumping Only.

[SkyArcher]

Last night, I've settled down to try to reattach the trucks to the cars. The holes in the floor are 1/4" and the holes in the trucks are 1/8". Looks like I need the special shoulder rivets. Has anybody come up with an alternative to attaching the trucks?

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

Bummer. On my Lionel prewar cars, I've been reattaching the trucks to the frame with #6 stainless steel "button head cap screws", 3/8" long, with nylon-insert locknuts. That said, the holes in the frame and trucks are pretty much the same size ... just a hair over 1/8". I haven't had to face your "different size holes" issue.

Do you definitely want to go the rivet route, or would you consider screws? If you use a screw, you could (possibly) from the top down ...

Button head cap screw, perhaps #6
"T" ferrule ... small hole for #6, shoulder to "grab" 1/4" diam hole in frame
Frame
Thin nylon washer (I add these to reduce friction, and avoid paint chafing between the truck and the frame)
Truck
Lock nut with nylon insert.

Not ideal, but it might work.

Magic bullet here is finding a "T" ferrule that would work. Maybe improvise one from an unused rivet???

Good luck,

TJ

[T-Man]

Last night, I've settled down to try to reattach the trucks to the cars. The holes in the floor are 1/4" and the holes in the trucks are 1/8". Looks like I need the special shoulder rivets. Has anybody come up with an alternative to attaching the trucks?

Glue a smaller hole washer to the floor.
You may need a fender washer. Something with a lot of width.

[SkyArcher]

Those are all good ideas. I'll sit down and fiddle with the trucks tonight.

[tjcruiser]

Good ideas with glueing something over the hole. A washer would work just fine.

I guess one has to consider the aesthetics of two different general types of cars: closed cars (like boxcars) where you won't see the screwhead and nearby region; and open cars (like gondolas) where the screwhead and nearby region is exposed.

TJ

[Stillakid]

Never used this, but it sounds like it would work well!

http://www.micromark.com/BLACKEN-IT-4-FL-OZ,7267.html

[T-Man]

Good ideas with glueing something over the hole. A washer would work just fine.

I guess one has to consider the aesthetics of two different general types of cars: closed cars (like boxcars) where you won't see the screwhead and nearby region; and open cars (like gondolas) where the screwhead and nearby region is exposed.

TJ

All you do is place a load over it. A flat car would be the hardest.
SO HOW was it fixed?

[Reckers]

This may be a dumb question, but...why not just drill out the holes in the trucks to 1/4"?

[SkyArcher]

This may be a dumb question, but...why not just drill out the holes in the trucks to 1/4"?

Not so dumb idea. I may do that as a last resort.

[tjcruiser]

One thing to think about there ...

If you drill to 1/4", and use a 1/4" screw accordingly, the threads on the 1/4" screw will inherently be larger depth than those on a 1/8" screw, resulting in more axial offset "slop" in how the truck pivots with respect to the frame. I.e., the thickness of the tin frame might engage into the threads just a bit. Not a big deal perhaps, but something to consider. You could use a 1/4" rivet there, which would avoid the problem just stated.

TJ

[T-Man]

1/4 is a large hole. Is the frame plastic? I'd also fill with epoxy then drill 1/8.

[SkyArcher]

It has a tin metal frame. I'm reluctant to do any irreversible modifications to the restoration of the train cars. I'm out of town right now and so I have plenty of time to mull over my options.

[SkyArcher]

Jeeze, I'd forgotten where this thread was. I was out of town for Thanksgiving and then I had to move. I'm finally settling down a bit and as soon as I can find the box that I packed the train in, I'll get back to work on it. My goal is to have the Royal Blue running under the tree for Christmas.

[SkyArcher]

Tonight, I dragged out my lathe and sat down and made some 1/4"x1/8" spacers for the trucks. I also found some copper pop rivets that looks pretty cool under the trucks. This works well as the spacer keeps the rivet from getting too tight and keeping the trucks from swiveling. Making those little tiny spacers was tedious work. :p

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6001&stc=1&d=1292208697


Here is the Royal Blue engine so far.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6002&stc=1&d=1292208698

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

You made some washers on your lathe ?!?!? Seriously?

The Blue looks beautiful. How have you done your relettering? Dry rub? Do tell.

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Not the washer, the little spacer next to the washer...

Those are decals from LBR. White lettering is difficult to do at home.

[tjcruiser]

Thanks, but ... dry rub decals, or wet transfer decals. Just curious ... they look great.

[SkyArcher]

Wet decals.

[SkyArcher]

Finished the boxcar. Three more cars to go...! :D

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6009&stc=1&d=1292249841

The wet transfer decals on the box car, I printed out on decal paper on a color laser printer. I found some decals on the net and it was $3.95 for two fingernail sized decal. That was ridiculous, I paid 1.95 for one sheet of decal paper and made more than enough decals to redo the whole train.

www.papilio.com

[Boston&Maine]

Another beautiful restoration job by an MTF member! :thumbsup:

[tjcruiser]

I'll add a few "dittos" to that. Nice job, Sky.

I'm really hoping (hint hint) that an MTF member does a little how-to thread on working with custom-printed decals ... laser vs. inkjet, minimum size sheet to print (4x6? etc.), any wet tranfer tips, etc.

TJ

[Reckers]

Very handsome work!

[SkyArcher]

Thanks Guys. Just finished the caboose and the log car. Now all I have to do is the operating dump car.

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6032&stc=1&d=1292300801

[Reckers]

That's the best looking log car I've ever seen, Sky. I've never bought one because I thought they all looked so crappy, but yours looks good.

[SkyArcher]

Thanks, I made my own logs.

[Reckers]

They look good. The usual set of dowels portrayed as logs, on factory cars, leave a lot to be desired. How did you decide to secure your logs to the car?

[SkyArcher]

The logs are supposed to be loose under the straps so you can remove them. I decided to use a couple dabs of hot glue to hold them together.

[SkyArcher]

Ok, I'm getting down to the nitty gritty details. Here's one...

What goes here? What holds the drawbar on the pin in the engine?


http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6075&stc=1&d=1292474811

[tjcruiser]

Sky,

I don't know this AF stuff at all, so I'm only <bleeping> in the wind here, but ...

Are you sure something "has" to go there? Might there be enough of a clamping pressure in where the draw bar attaches to the tender that it wouldn't have a tendency to flop down and fall off of the loco pin?

TJ

[SkyArcher]

Be sure to *bleep* downwind. You may be right. I think that I have a clip that I can put there.

[Reckers]

Sky,

A few of my AF's have a shoulder screw where your pin is, and that's it. The screw does not apply any pressure to the drawbar; it simply provides a pin for that hole to slip over and drag the tender without actually securing it. There's not even a clip.

[Reckers]

The logs are supposed to be loose under the straps so you can remove them. I decided to use a couple dabs of hot glue to hold them together.

I wasn't aware of that. The ones I've seen have a strip of metal banding at either end to secure the logs, but I had assumed they were tight instead of loose. I may buy one at some point and make my own logs, then get some scale black chain to secure them.

[SkyArcher]

Well I set the engine and tender on a test track, and I think that Reckers is right, it looks like the drawbar does not need a clip or anything. We'll see how it works once I get a loop set up.

[Reckers]

Well I set the engine and tender on a test track, and I think that Reckers is right, it looks like the drawbar does not need a clip or anything. We'll see how it works once I get a loop set up.

We have a saying, in the south: "Even a blind pig finds the occasional acorn." Now and then, I manage a passable answer!:D

[T-Man]

If the tender bar is long on the tender side (after the swivel point)and close to the frame it will hold up.

[Major]

The pre war Royal Blue on O scale track is the same as the post war Royal Blue on S scale track. The only difference is the wheels. All of the early post war S scale locomotives were made for O scale track prior to WW2.

[ChopperCharles]

So, any updates on the royal blue? Just found this thread, and now I want a powder-coating gun... following with interest, and then it just ended :(

Charles.