NCE power cab seems slow!

[concretepumper]

Ok so a few days ago I bought the NCE Power Cab. I really like all the functions and it does have a quality feel to it but, it seems a lot slower than my Atlasmaster. At 28 my Walthers runs noticeably slower than the top speed that I am used to. Is this possibly a setting? Or is this system just weak without the booster or upgrading. I know this isn't a slot car track not its not all about speed but I dunno if I really like the NCE. Also I might add this is the only DCC loco (Lights no sound) I own so I have no other for comparison. This NCE might be for sale if this is the way it runs. Having no sound locos the only thing I have gained is momentum settings. Not really too exciting.
Any ideas DCC pros? :confused:

[gunrunnerjohn]

I'll bet it's a configuration thing, I can do the same thing to my locomotives with my Lionel Legacy controller.

[concretepumper]

Think so John or is it just the low output of the power pack that it comes with.

[gc53dfgc]

This is a simple fix. What are you thinking to get for it?:D Just jokeing. It is probably because the AtlasMaster is a 28 or 8 speed step controller and not the 128 speed steps of an NCE. It is also very possible that the output voltage of the Atlas master was higher than the NCE so you will need to tweak a few CV's to set the engines to run faster starting off which I hate and prefer a slow crawl. A way to do this is increase the max voltage CV6 I think and then you can also in most decoders change the curve of acceleration so at 128 the motor gets all power instead of half of what is possible so slow at start normal at normal and blazing at full.

[gc53dfgc]

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6193/picklesncedcc.jpg

[concretepumper]

Well send that little doggie my way so he can set me up. :laugh::laugh:

I guess I will start reading. :confused: I have never done any DCC programing or CV tweaking or anything. :mad:

[gc53dfgc]

have you i dunno thought of reading the manual? They tend to be very helpful in this sort of thing. :p

[concretepumper]

:urat00l:

[haphall]

53, love the picture. Cracks me up!

[concretepumper]

Wow no real help here today!

[gc53dfgc]

oh we are just haveing some fun.:p It has to be with the CV programming and nothing else. A standard DCC loco with just a motor and lights will not have that noticeable a drop and this is a new NCE system so it and all other systems can easily handle 2 or 3 DCC's with just lights. Is it possible you have a power plug hooked up to the wrong spot? I have never worked with a NCE system so I can only tell you those are the only two possibilitys. Does it do this with your other locos?

Oh yeah the doggie woggie says he is part of a Union and won't work for you till you have worked out all the terms and conditions with his lawyer and his Union. One of the things I heard him mention was three warm meals a day and a walk every hour and a half. :p

[NIMT]

Most likely it's because you bought and NCE unit instead of a digitrax one!:p
You know I built that engine with a safety in it to make it not run very well when someone doesn't follow my advice!;)
:laugh::laugh::laugh:
Just funning with ya!!:eek:
Most likely it is a CV setting problem there are a whole lot of options to the Decoder that is in that engine, let me rememmber which one I used, OH yea it a NCE Decoder, they are the best IMHO! I've only installed like hummm lets say well over a four hundred of them!
I will get a CV sheet for the decoder over to you or you can pull one off of NCE's site it's a D13SR Decoder!
When all else fails set CV 30 to 2 and it will reset everything back to original factory settings.

[concretepumper]

Alright thanks Sean! :thumbsup: This is making me realize I enjoy building with my hands. I like the mechanical part of model Railroading. I am the furthest thing from a Computer geek. (That's Tracy's job!) I am going to read into this manual some more and see if I can figure it out.

BTW to the smartass KNOW-IT-ALL above I have already read into the Manual and used the quick start guide to get it going. Thanks but I already have 2 15 year olds in my house that know everything!

This makes me like how simple the Atlasmaster is. At this point I kinda wish I would have spent the $200 on something else! :ohwell:

[gunrunnerjohn]

Think if it as a "brain exercise". :D

[gc53dfgc]

oh dude I meant no hard feelings to you. I have never used a NCE system so I am going off of the experience I have with my Bachmann Dynamis and my beginner system. I have actually plug a power supply into the dynamis with a lower voltage and done this where I plugged my Dynamis power cord into a Bachmann DC power pack and this made the engines run slower and not go in reverse so I am just trying to nail down possibilitys as this is new to you which is not a bad thing as i was new at it at one time to and had a lot of questions as well. It must be a CV issue now as nothing else is wrong from what you say. You still have not said if you have ran other DCC engines on it yet or do you just have that one?

CV's 2,5,6,7 are the ones that control the voltage and I think the speed curves.

CV 5 is for max voltage so see if increaseing this one first works.

[concretepumper]

oh dude I meant no hard feelings to you. I have never used a NCE system so I am going off of the experience I have with my Bachmann Dynamis and my beginner system. I have actually plug a power supply into the dynamis with a lower voltage and done this where I plugged my Dynamis power cord into a Bachmann DC power pack and this made the engines run slower and not go in reverse so I am just trying to nail down possibilitys as this is new to you which is not a bad thing as i was new at it at one time to and had a lot of questions as well. It must be a CV issue now as nothing else is wrong from what you say.


You still have not said if you have ran other DCC engines on it yet or do you just have that one?

CV's 2,5,6,7 are the ones that control the voltage and I think the speed curves.

CV 5 is for max voltage so see if increaseing this one first works.

The statement of yours I underlined is where I know you didn't even red post #1 all the way through. Go back and read and you will see I only have 1 DCC loco. I have noticed here on the forum you often pipe off weather you know about it or not. Typical of today's teenager. I am a Father of 4 and know when I am being listened too! :rolleyes:

[concretepumper]

thanks for the help guys. :cool:

[gunrunnerjohn]

thanks for the help guys. :cool:Did you figure it out?

[gc53dfgc]

ok, sorry I missed the only part but I did read it all. I guess that is what I get for reading a post at 10 at night after a busy day.

[concretepumper]

Did you figure it out?



No at this point I am ready to box it back up! :mad::mad:

[gc53dfgc]

Why are you ready to box it up already? Did non of the CV's work? I said sorry if I upset you with the daschund and what not. I was just funnin and I still said everything I have run into and what could be wrong. If non of that works and there is no way to borrow or find another DCC engine then I guess it could just be a bad system but I wouldn't give up yet. You have already figured out a lot of it there isn't to much left to figure out.

[concretepumper]

:( So no I have zero response from the Loco. I don't know what I did. No lights-Nothin'! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

I do know this is supposed to be fun right? :confused: Am I missing something? I want to throw this thing! :mad: Computers have never been a hobby for me just a necessary evil. :mad:

Sorry for being rude gc53dfgc. ;) I am letting this little computer piss me off. :cool:

This makes me wanna wire the table back to DC with a few blocks and just run my trains. :D

Sean I tried cv30 to 2 and nothing. :(

[gc53dfgc]

it's okay.

If Sean had already changed the adress of the engine from the factory 03 to the actual road number of the engine like most DCC people do when you reset it back to factory it will now only respond to address 3 instead of the road number. You may know this and already done this but I don't know so I am just makeing sure. If there is no response at all and it is set to the proper address after the reset then I will make an educated guess and say that you might still be in program mode or not exited it properly or one of the CV's that was reset got screwed up. It is very unlikely but possible that the decoder is shot. Now this is extremely unlikely and very easy to fix as you already have a DC controller. So just undo the connections to the DCC system and hook it up to the DC controller no need to rewire anything. Now if you turn up the DC throttle and the engine doesn't do anything then it is a shot decoder or a loose wire somewhere. I am not doubting Seans work it is just that this happens sometimes for no reason as is the case with all electronics. If it is proving to just be to much to handle just take a break from it and go back to it later when you think you can. I would also check with Sean to see exactly what decoder he used to make sure it is DCC/DC capable which almost all are but you never know and it is better safe then sorry.

[concretepumper]

Yea most likely I screwed up the cvs. I did get it to change once and it was very jerky and the same top speed. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHh............. I tried again (don't remember cvs) and now nothing. I believe I have totally screwed it up. No fun!

[gc53dfgc]

I'm sure Sean will be on here soon and help you out. If i knew the exact decoder used I could do some research on it and help you with it but there are a lot of NCE decoders that he could have used.

[concretepumper]

Its a NCE D13SR . I don't know what I have done. :( :mad:

[gc53dfgc]

From what i read from the manual the factory reset sets Vmax and start to 0 and also the momentum CV's to 0. It has been forever since i have had to program a CV but I am pretty sure those should not be at 0. Try raiseing those to fix it. CV 30 is for error/reset registar. CV29 is for decoder configuration and should be set to 02. Make sure CV's 15 and 16 are set to 0 these lock out programming and can make it so the locomotive will not respond to DCC signals. Now this is from me reading a manual which does help but is nothing compared to haveing that decoder in a locomotive in front of me on my DCC system. Is it possible you have something touching both rails at once like a piece of metal?

[concretepumper]

OK gc I did manage to get it going again somehow. I went off of your above numbers and it powered up. Man you are a true know it all! :D Good thing! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

The top speed still seems slow. :( Should I just live with it this way? I am thinking it won't pull as much now with the top speed slow.

Anybody else experience their trains loosing top speed when changing to a new DC or DCC system?

[gc53dfgc]

Try putting CV 5 as high as it can go or at least a good bit higher then current and see what that does. This is the maximum voltage that goes to the motor when you reach the highest speed step and should fix the speed issue. It is possible that the AtlasMaster had a higher output voltage then what is standard for a DCC system or at least higher then an NCE but I don't think that is the issue here as all DCC systems have to adhere to NMRA standars. I have used my DCC engines on both that horrible but good starter DCC system you get with their commander set and I currently use the Bachmann Dynamis which is actually made by ESU which is actually a white version so Bachmann just paid them to make a black one for them. I personally prefer the Dynamis handheld system over all other systems but I can't control the start up and shut down sequences on Tsunami decoders so I have to switch. I have actually talked to Soundtraxx about it and they said they would work on makeing this improvement to future products so I still am unsure if i will need to get a new system or not. Oh and the engines didn't loose any speed between switching system.

[concretepumper]

OK gc I set 6 to 255 that is as large as it will hold. No difference. Still slow!

[concretepumper]

This guy had the same problem.

http://forum.atlasrr.com/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=29538

[gc53dfgc]

no it has to be CV5, 6 is for mid speed. By putting it to 255 I don't know what that will do to the max or the mid. It might just make the decoder override it. Could you get a video of it at full speed for me as i am running out of ideas now.

[gc53dfgc]

his issue is that his engines have sped up a lot from switching DCC systems you seam to have the opposite issue. he also says they slow down so I don't know if his issue is your issue. It sounds like you are used to a higher speed then with the other system but seeing a video will awnser this question for sure.

[concretepumper]

I am reading reviews and it looks like maybe this system is weak without the booster. Stupid!

I guess its called a "smart booster" . Lol is this their "smart" way to make more money? Lame if you ask me. Matter of fact if this is the case I will sell or return this before I give them another $100 bucks in order to properly power a $200 DCC. :bs:


I found this statement about the system:

NCE offer the SB3a Smart Booster as the first step to expand the PowerCab. It is a 5 amp booster and command station combined and the PowerCab handset then behaves as a ProCab and can control up to six trains.

I guess I didn't realize I would need to upgrade a 200 dollar system immediately to make it run full speed! :lame: :loser:

[concretepumper]

I will get a vid in the AM to compare before and now!

[gc53dfgc]

Oh I think i know what you did. You bought the NCE's equivalent to the Bachmann Commander system. Both are 1amp output which is enough to run one loco with a forward/backup light at full speed or something close to it. Bachmann offers the same kind of 5 amp booster as NCE. I have the Dynamis which is a 2.5 and it came with a 5 amp booster (thanks to ebay) so I am set for a long time. See if you can't pickup the NCE booster or the Bachmann booster off of ebay for dirt cheap as that's what they tend to go for.

[concretepumper]

I will give it some more screwing with but I am leaning toward going back to my AtlasMaster! Maybe I will call NCE monday and see what they say.

[haphall]

gc and cp- I've been following this thread closely. I was strongly considering going with NCE based on some favorable reviews on this and other sites, but now I'm skeptical.
As I read up on the NCE (and others), it seemed a booster(s) would be needed for about every 10 feet of track. (Not sure how the presence of a yard would influence that calculation though.)
Now I'm wondering whether I should stick with my conclusion. What's your current recommendation cp? gc? Is NCE still the 'friendliest' brand given all this?

[gunrunnerjohn]

You guys are making me glad I run O with TMCC! :D

[Xnats]

I'll admit I read through all the post real fast, so I might have missed stuff :rolleyes:
I had the same problem with my Zephyr when trying to get two engines to run together. I have all digitrax decodes too. The decoders just seem to go screwy and need to be reset. I tried and tried to reset them off my system. My system said is was working but they just did not run as good as the factory set up. I followed Anton's and Bman's posts and just got the PR3, it just makes things so much more simpler.
If I recall, your system does not offer read-backs so you can not see errors on a write or even if it took a write. (not really sure though)
The way I see it, you can not work on new cars without computer diagnostics, DCC is the same way. Maybe your LHS offers some services and they can try and reset the decoder on their system.
Wish ya luck bud, I know your pain when the crap don't work right :mad: but when it does, o -boy :D :thumbsup: it is worth the money :laugh:

[gc53dfgc]

gc and cp- I've been following this thread closely. I was strongly considering going with NCE based on some favorable reviews on this and other sites, but now I'm skeptical.
As I read up on the NCE (and others), it seemed a booster(s) would be needed for about every 10 feet of track. (Not sure how the presence of a yard would influence that calculation though.)
Now I'm wondering whether I should stick with my conclusion. What's your current recommendation cp? gc? Is NCE still the 'friendliest' brand given all this?

People realy need to realise that boosters and track length have nothing in common. The booster supplies more amps so more trains can run at once. You need to run more feeders if your engines are slowing down not just go and buy an expensive booster. a 4x8 layout has roughly 20 feet of track if you do an oval and even these 1 amp system can handle that just fine. The problem that CP made which a lot of people do is he got what is known as the beggining DCC system which is always 1 amp and can only support one engine going at close to its patential and haveing just a forward light on. Now as i stated I advanced from that quickly as I realised it makes it basically just a DC set-up as you can only run one train and got a Dynamis (2.5Amp=3trains) and that came with a 5 amp booster (5amp=10trains) on a 4x8 so I have no issues with not being able to run enough engines. I plan on getting a new DCC system and it will be a NCE but I will be getting either the radio 5 amp or the radio 10 amp which is what i had thought CP got but i must have missed that in his other thread. So NCE is still a very very good system and i still recommend it but you need to watch out for the amps it supplies. The general rule is 1amp=2 trains at about 3/4th full speed or something like that. Now sound engines take at least 1 amp so if you go that route 1amp=1 sound engine. Hope that helps with your decision and yes all the good systems cost around 400-600 just how it works.

[haphall]

Thanks for clearing that up gc. I'm brand new to anything DCC and the learning curve is pretty daunting. Wish we had a LHS in this town. I'd get whatever they supported. Racetrack, topless bars, national park but no hobby store within an hour's drive. What's up with that? I'd open one but who has $100K for a decent inventory? Alas.

[gc53dfgc]

You could always buy it all on ebay for cheap and resell it. :D

[concretepumper]

This is a 2 AMP system. Its this one:

http://www.jimsmodeltrains.com/-strse-194/powercab-25/Detail.bok

[gc53dfgc]

well 2 amps should easily power your train to full power. I am not sure about the handheld actually being the power box piece to though. Try tweaking more CV's and what not. Also what voltage does your power plug say. And about that video.

[haphall]

The web page has "2 amp" all over it.

[gc53dfgc]

Any new progress CP? If you are completly fed up with NCE DCC but still want to use a nicer DCC system I have the solution for you. Their is no longer a need for the Bachmann Dynamis system. It was a great system when first released but had a lot of downfalls. Well ESU has finally solved all of this. They have released in essence the same as the Dynamis except more power (3amps), no need for another module to have more then one controller, a PC interface, the ability to hook up other system components, the ability to add a booster onto the command station. and theirs was actually made by them. I am getting one this week and will post about it if you are interested. The price is around 300-350 U.S. Dollars.

[tankist]

skimmed through the thread, perhaps i'm missing some answers

i run powercab with no booster.
i find that new, out of box digitrax decoders have limited Vmax value programmed from the factory, not sure how the NCE13 decoders are in that regard. but even then their scale speed is well above prototypical. and intermontain loco with tsunami decoder had a TGV speed, lol. so it is not the system.


if you messed settings in decoder just do a factory reset: put it on program track and program the corresponding CV per your decoder manual (can't remmeber which one is it for NCE13 from top of my head).

[NIMT]

CP,
How about I sell you my 8 amp main system with all the other goodies and boosters and throttles that when all said and done will supply your layout with 24 amps of power! That will run your layout perfectly and probably light up your X-mas tree and displays too!:D
Sorry your having issues with yours :o if you think it's the decoder giving you fits then send it back and I'll tweak it all back in shape for you!:thumbsup:

[gc53dfgc]

I still would like to see a video to help determine what is wrong.

[concretepumper]

I still would like to see a video to help determine what is wrong.

OK gc, Heres 2 different videos to show a speed comparison. The 1st video is dated when I first hooked up my Atlasmaster DCC you can see how far along my layout was. The 2nd one I made is from a few days ago. I set all CVs to full everything according to the book.

About half way into the first vid is a good example of top speed. Then watch the NCE vid and you will see the difference.


http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/trickconcretepumper/Train%20Videos/th_UnionPacific287Firstrun.jpg (http://s767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/trickconcretepumper/Train%20Videos/?action=view&current=UnionPacific287Firstrun.mp4)

http://i767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/trickconcretepumper/Train%20Videos/th_dunno049.jpg (http://s767.photobucket.com/albums/xx319/trickconcretepumper/Train%20Videos/?action=view&current=dunno049.mp4)

[gc53dfgc]

Ok, I am willing to rule out your system being the issue now. Even on your new DCC system that engine would be going at least 60mph in prototypical scale. your atlasmaster looks more like a DC controler powering them not a DCC system. I personally would be more then happy with the NCE as that speed would be very fast for most things. Now there are two things that I think could cause the slow down. The engine when you got it from Sean was most likely completely cleaned and lubed so it ran at peak ability. Now I don't remember if you said how long you had this engine and I am a bit tired (thread on that later) so I am assumeing a month or two ago and it seems like you run it often so I would assume that the wheels, power pickups, gears, and the motor have become dirty and this is contributeing to your loss of speed. You'd be suprised just how much speed can be lost by an engine that has not been cleaned in a while. There is also a possibility that the AtlasMaster was at the top of the max voltage output allowed by the NMRA and the NCE is more in the middle range like my Dynamis which is 14-16Volts. If non of this works or you are not happy with the speed still then it is your call if you wish to return the system or not but most DCC modellers would be very happy with the NCE max speed and often run their engines a lot more to prototypical speed then just fast. Now I understand that people like model trains for different reasons and if you prefer the faster speed of the AtlasMaster and can't get the NCE to meet this then go with what you want and just switch back to the Atlasmaster no one is gowing to hate you for this choice so do what you think is best.

[tankist]

ok, watched your 1 out of 5 video and i do not see anything wrong. it is running at more then sensible speed already.

[gunrunnerjohn]

I agree with the other opinions, I think it's going as fast as I'd ever like it to go in any case. It looks like it's probably faster than the real prototype would go.

Have you learned nothing from the train hitting the ground previously? :p:p:p

[concretepumper]

Really? So you guys are saying If your trains ran much slower than they did before a $200 upgrade you would be OK with that?

I know this isn't slot car racing but ultimately I have less pulling power and less top speed!

I ran it for a few hours last night at 1/2 throttle. I normally run it about that speed in the evening but when my boys play they like to run fast.

With all the Mountains and berms there is no way to derail to the floor now! :p

[gunrunnerjohn]

Well, I confess, it would bother me that it didn't work like the other environment. I know nothing about DCC, so assisting in the effort will be pointless for me. Now, if you want to convert that layout to O-scale and TMCC/Legacy, I'm your man! :D

[gc53dfgc]

Alright here another thing to try. Set your controller and the locomotive decoder to 28 speed steps and tell me if that doesn't increase it's top speed. I know that by switching to 128 speed steps like you have it allows the engine to run close to 1 scale mph and have a more fluid speed transition then if you used 28 and it could be either the decoder does not like 128 or the change is limiting the max voltage being allowed to the motor. check to make sure that the acceleration rate and deceleration rates are as low as possible so it instently goes to from one speed step to another. If you set those to max or if Sean messed with it and the AtlasMaster disregards this and the NCE doesn't it means the engine could take a lot longer to reach the top speed just like a real one would. I will try to get a video made this comeing weekend showing what I mean.