Bypassing the e-unit in the 671

[DJTrains]

How do I bypass this e-unit and wire this engine to run forward only?

The e-unit is defective.

Thanks

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/DJTrains/motor.jpg[/IMG]

[Boston&Maine]

This is why I love older Lionel locomotives, they are easy to work with... All you need to do is rip out the e-unit and patch up the circuit you just broke...

On the left side, you have two wires (red and bronze) going into the e-unit... I am assuming that one of those comes from the smoke unit and the other comes from the pick-up rollers... On the right side you have three wires going into the e-unit... The two wires circled in blue are for the two brushes, and the wire circled in red goes to the coil... What you need to do is connect the wire coming from the pick-up rollers to one of the blue circles, and then connect the coil wire to the other blue circle (in the picture, connect red with blue, red with blue)... Now, I am not sure which of the red circles go with which of the blue circles for your particular motor... Just try it one way and you will know if you have them mixed up because the locomotive will run in reverse ;)

The easiest thing to do would probably be just break the wires off at the e-unit, connect red to blue and red to blue, test it out on the track, and if need be switch them... Then you will know that when you solder new wire in that they are going to the right places...

As far as connecting the smoke unit, you can either tie it into the wire for the light (I do not see that in the picture you provided) or you can extend it and attach it to the same blue circle you attached the wire coming from the pick-up rollers to...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/gallery/files/1/9/0/train_motor.jpg

PS: I hope that was not too confusing, I really suck at explaining things :o

[DJTrains]

You're too awesome for words!:thumbsup:

Thanks much!

Dale

[DJTrains]

This is why I love older Lionel locomotives, they are easy to work with... All you need to do is rip out the e-unit and patch up the circuit you just broke...

On the left side, you have two wires (red and bronze) going into the e-unit... I am assuming that one of those comes from the smoke unit and the other comes from the pick-up rollers... On the right side you have three wires going into the e-unit... The two wires circled in blue are for the two brushes, and the wire circled in red goes to the coil... What you need to do is connect the wire coming from the pick-up rollers to one of the blue circles, and then connect the coil wire to the other blue circle (in the picture, connect red with blue, red with blue)... Now, I am not sure which of the red circles go with which of the blue circles for your particular motor... Just try it one way and you will know if you have them mixed up because the locomotive will run in reverse ;)

The easiest thing to do would probably be just break the wires off at the e-unit, connect red to blue and red to blue, test it out on the track, and if need be switch them... Then you will know that when you solder new wire in that they are going to the right places...

As far as connecting the smoke unit, you can either tie it into the wire for the light (I do not see that in the picture you provided) or you can extend it and attach it to the same blue circle you attached the wire coming from the pick-up rollers to...

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/gallery/files/1/9/0/train_motor.jpg

PS: I hope that was not too confusing, I really suck at explaining things :o


I tried it but it didn't work.

It used to groan but now it's dead silent.

I tried the wires in other arrangements with no luck.

Guess it needs that e-unit to work?

[Boston&Maine]

I tried it but it didn't work.

It used to groan but now it's dead silent.

I tried the wires in other arrangements with no luck.

Guess it needs that e-unit to work?

Hmm, IDK... I can guarantee you that it does not need the e-unit to work though...

[DJTrains]

I'll replace the old wires tomorrow and see if new wires help.

Maybe the motor is gone?

Dale

[Boston&Maine]

Maybe the motor is gone?

It is possible... I would need the locomotive in hand to look it over... The wiring may be bad, it is also possible that the wiring elsewhere is bad... Do you have a multimeter to test it? Maybe T-Man will be on soon to chime in on this...

Just to be 100% sure, these are the wiring setups you tried? I should have drew this picture in the first place, LOL :o

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/gallery/files/1/9/0/loco_motor.jpg

[DJTrains]

[QUOTE=Boston&Maine;5027]It is possible... I would need the locomotive in hand to look it over... The wiring may be bad, it is also possible that the wiring elsewhere is bad... Do you have a multimeter to test it? Maybe T-Man will be on soon to chime in on this...

Just to be 100% sure, these are the wiring setups you tried? I should have drew this picture in the first place, LOL :o

Yes, that's it.

The pickups are working because the smoker works.

I'll rig some alligator clips and wires tomorrow to check for life.

Maybe the motor is toast.

[T-Man]

What's bad with the eunit? Did the drum break?
B&M the wiring looked ok. It's a shame to do this to a nice engine.

You will have to check if there is a short between the armature plate and shaft. You can do this with a powered test light.

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr341/Railroad-Rob/misc/brushup-1-1.jpg


Might need this

[DJTrains]

What's bad with the eunit? Did the drum break?
B&M the wiring looked ok. It's a shame to do this to a nice engine.

You will have to check if there is a short between the armature plate and shaft. You can do this with a powered test light.

http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr341/Railroad-Rob/misc/brushup-1-1.jpg


Might need this


Yes, the problem isn't with the e-unit. Or at least it's not just the e-unit.

I wired the motor direct and got nothing. I found the roller assembly was mounted upside down and the power stem wasn't properily insulated but these weren't the problem either.

I wired the engine and pushed it down the track and it would kick in and run maybe 3 inches and stop.

The problem is within the motor itself.

Now I either have to buy a new motor or figure out how to rebuild this one.

[DJTrains]

I just opened the motor...ah, is this a problem?

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/DJTrains/671brushes.jpg

[DJTrains]

opps!

[T-Man]

Where are the brushes!
If the motor jitters back and forth but not spin then it is bad.
I tried to rewind and only fitted half the turns so I lost half the motor power. I practiced with two armatures. When you see the price for an atomic armature you may want to buy another engine.

If the eunit didn't cause it the owner probably knew it. I guess you have to learn how to fix them or buy dependable.

[Boston&Maine]

Wow, where are those brushes :eek:

[DJTrains]

Wow, where are those brushes :eek:

That's easy---they were mounted in backwards of course.

This train must of been assembled after a big factory party. :laugh:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-47.htm

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/DJTrains/bush.jpg

[DJTrains]

If I cleaned the armature plate and had couple new springs (mounted the right way) I'll bet she'd work fine.

I just ordered the brushes and springs off ebay. They cost $8 shipped.

What do you all think?

[T-Man]

That's one for the books. The engine, overall looked really clean and in great condition. Hope it works out. I think you found the problem. Whew:rolleyes:

[DJTrains]

That's one for the books. The engine, overall looked really clean and in great condition. Hope it works out. I think you found the problem. Whew:rolleyes:


Yes, this engine looks like it was used very little. The story again was it spent its time as a store display and was discovered in an old hobby shop (words to that affect).

The steamer and tender almost look like they just came out of their boxes.

By looking at the armature plate it's clear it was run some but with the brushes in backwards it didn't hold up long. Funny somebody didn't just fix it.

I'm glad because I got both together for approx. $120 ebay bid, and I've learned something about the vintage higher-grade Lionels. They sure beat the newer scouts--that's for sure!

And too I like the smoke feature and this baby smokes like nothing I ever saw before! The one time I got it to go around the track I put in a few drops of smoke and it nealy smoked me out of the basement! :laugh: It smokes just like those videos I've seen of the new expensive steamers.

[DJTrains]

I got the steamer working (front and back) but now the smoker quit! :thumbsdown:

The unit gets hot but no smoke.

I guess I'll have to take it apart and install one of those rebuild kits.

It seems like the piston is sticking too now.

Oh, I found out what was causing the e-unit to act-up. It's the tender. For some reason when I use the original tender it sparks and causes the engine to shift directions. Maybe an electrical problem?

Dale

[Boston&Maine]

Oh, I found out what was causing the e-unit to act-up. It's the tender. For some reason when I use the original tender it sparks and causes the engine to shift directions. Maybe an electrical problem?

Here is how the e-unit works... It is quite the setup...


There is an electromagnet with a hole cut straight down the middle...
Inside of that hole fits a metal rod...
When power is applied to the locomotive the electromagnet creates a charge and pulls the metal rod up...
When power is cut, the magnetic charge disappears causing the metal rod to drop...
Connected to the bottom of the metal rod is a hook...
Also in the e-unit is a drum...
This drum has four rows of thin metal strips positioned in a certain order...
In the center of the drum is a gear...
When the metal rod is lifted up into the electromagnet the hook catches the gear on the drum and rotates it...
Depending on the pattern that the thin metal strips are in, either the circuit is completed causing the engine to move forward, or the circuit is completed causing the engine to move in reverse, or the circuit is not completed and the engine does not move (there are two neutral positions in the e-unit)...

So when your tender sparks it must be causing a short, which in turn cuts the magnetic charge in the e-unit for a split second, meaning that it cycles which position the e-unit is in...

[T-Man]

Stuff, I have to remember that. It's an electromagnet. Put a charge through the winding and you pull the rod. I call it a finger that flips the drum.
That was good and entertaining. Thank you.

Dale, does the caboose have a whistle or center roller. If it does it's a short. You loose power and the "stuff" works when the power returns.
I saw the red wire to your e unit check to make sure it is in correctly and you do not short that red wire. A common error is putting something back together that isn't quite right.

I have one of those lights fixed to a lockon' when I have short the light goes out and I shut down the transformer before I burn up a motor or coil. It is simpler than a power meter. Ypu don't want to do arcs and sparks and AC weld the engine to the rails.

Bob

[Boston&Maine]

Stuff, I have to remember that.

Huh? I do not know what "stuff" you are talking about T-Man :dunno: :rolleyes: :D

[DJTrains]

Here is how the e-unit works... It is quite the setup...


There is an electromagnet with a hole cut straight down the middle...
Inside of that hole fits a metal rod...
When power is applied to the locomotive the electromagnet creates a charge and pulls the metal rod up...
When power is cut, the magnetic charge disappears causing the metal rod to drop...
Connected to the bottom of the metal rod is a hook...
Also in the e-unit is a drum...
This drum has four rows of thin metal strips positioned in a certain order...
In the center of the drum is a gear...
When the metal rod is lifted up into the electromagnet the hook catches the gear on the drum and rotates it...
Depending on the pattern that the thin metal strips are in, either the circuit is completed causing the engine to move forward, or the circuit is completed causing the engine to move in reverse, or the circuit is not completed and the engine does not move (there are two neutral positions in the e-unit)...

So when your tender sparks it must be causing a short, which in turn cuts the magnetic charge in the e-unit for a split second, meaning that it cycles which position the e-unit is in...


Great post and thanks!

Yes, this is what happened. The problem is a defective front pickup roller assembly.

The spring that pushes the roller down is about gone. This not only keeps the roller from getting down far enough to make good contact with the center rail, it also puts the roller on an angle.

As the tender rounded a corner the roller would hit the center rail (the sparking) and cause the short that triggered the e-unit.

You know I'll bet this happens a lot and people think they have a bad e-unit.

I plan to put a spacer (shim) between the frame and that pin/spring/roller assembly to see if I can get it to make solid contact with the rail.

The good news is the 671 steamer is now working perfectly. It smokes strong and has great power. If I whip the transformer on full blast it will spin it's wheels.

[T-Man]

You missed the "stuff" version.
I am happy for the engine. You tortured the poor thing.
It's great that all is well.
Bob

Great pictures I need to get one some day.

[DJTrains]

Dale, does the caboose have a whistle or center roller. If it does it's a short.
Bob

Hi Bob,

No, the caboose has no roller. The problem in this case is the front roller assembly on the tender. Basically the spring is gone. This throws the roller off and causes the e-unit in the 671 to malfunction.

I've tried the 671 by itself and with another tender and it works great. It's only with the original tender that it acts up.

[DJTrains]

You missed the "stuff" version.
I am happy for the engine. You tortured the poor thing.
It's great that all is well.
Bob

Great pictures I need to get one some day.


I was thinking it tortured me :laugh:

This was a real learning expereince, that's for sure.

The 671 had the following issues:

1. Pickup roller assembled installed upside down which caused the rollers to barely touch the center rail which caused the LOCO to sometimes lose power and reverse direction on corners. Also in this upside down position the metal strip carrying power from the rollers to the smoker/lamp/motor had a poor connection. This was one reason why at first I was sure the e-unit was bad. I'll bet a lot of e-units get replaced that don't need replacing.
2. Someone installed the brushes backwards (Duh!)
3. Found a lock washer "floating" in the old grease to the drive gear

Problems with the tender (so far)

1. Front roller assembly needs replacing or repair
2. Wheel assemblies partly frozen due to hardened grease and dirt

Note: All this from a LOCO advertised on ebay as "a great working train." :laugh:

I sure see why you vintage guys learn train repair.

[Boston&Maine]

2. Wheel assemblies partly frozen due to hardened grease and dirt


What I usually do is take the truck (the technical name for the wheel assebly) off and give it a good scrubbing with a toothbrush, using dish soap and water... You just need to make sure that you dry it off completely ASAP so that it does not start to rust... I use a hair dryer to accomplish this... Then when it is dry you can apply some oil/lube (not grease) to the ends of the axles where they mount to the truck frame...

If you break the horseshoe clip that holds the truck to the frame it can be replaced with a 3/16 inch e-clip, available at most hardware stores...

[T-Man]

Old trains need a close inspection. Obviously some one tampered with it and left it a mess. Not intentionally but just tried to see or fix a problem.Your on your way now.
My 2333 had an engine problem a thrust washer was missing. It was over a period of years before I discovered it. I watch the motor armature move back and forth. Finally I found a parts diagram and deduced the missing piece.
A 671 wouldn't be my first choice to start learning train repair. That's why I love ebay junk lots.
Bob

[DJTrains]

What I usually do is take the truck (the technical name for the wheel assebly) off and give it a good scrubbing with a toothbrush, using dish soap and water... You just need to make sure that you dry it off completely ASAP so that it does not start to rust... I use a hair dryer to accomplish this... Then when it is dry you can apply some oil/lube (not grease) to the ends of the axles where they mount to the truck frame...

If you break the horseshoe clip that holds the truck to the frame it can be replaced with a 3/16 inch e-clip, available at most hardware stores...

I'd love to remove the front truck but mine appears to be riveted to the frame. You say there's a way to disassemble them?

Also, I find that the smoker piston keeps sticking in the up position. Does anyone offer a spring to go inside the piston to force it downward?

[Boston&Maine]

I'd love to remove the front truck but mine appears to be riveted to the frame. You say there's a way to disassemble them?

Also, I find that the smoker piston keeps sticking in the up position. Does anyone offer a spring to go inside the piston to force it downward?

Have you actually taken the tender shell off the frame, or are you saying it is riveted just by looking at the underside of the frame? I will take a picture to show you what I am talking about with the horseshoe clip when I get home...

I believe that there should have originally been a spring in the piston... The only ones I have seen on eBay come with the whole smoke unit, go figure... Maybe you can see if this guy (http://www.georgetebolt.com/) has any for sale...

[DJTrains]

Have you actually taken the tender shell off the frame, or are you saying it is riveted just by looking at the underside of the frame? I will take a picture to show you what I am talking about with the horseshoe clip when I get home...

I believe that there should have originally been a spring in the piston... The only ones I have seen on eBay come with the whole smoke unit, go figure... Maybe you can see if this guy (http://www.georgetebolt.com/) has any for sale...

Yes, I took the tender shell off and the trucks are riveted to the metal bottom on the tender.

I wouldn't be surprised if it had a spring at one time. That would be consistant with how this whole project has been going (lots of messed-up things) :D

But I didn't think the early LOCOs hard springs in their smoke units. I'll need to check the drawings again.

The seller is a major seller of train items on ebay and I'll bet he rolled on the floor laughing when I bought this "lemon." :laugh:

[Boston&Maine]

Weird, I have never seen a truck riveted to the frame... Maybe it was a repair of some sort? This is what all mine have looked like:

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/gallery/files/1/9/0/horseshoe.jpg

[DJTrains]

With mine the truck has to be spread apart.

I just figured it out about 5 minutes ago.

I have the faulty roller unit out and I put a spring from an ink pen in replacement of the worn out original spring.

I'll let you know how it works.

Oh too I found out the 671 uses the 2026-44 spring over the piston. Now I'm trying to find one cheap. :thumbsup:

Dale