DeBoardfam HO

[deboardfam]

Plans have kind of taken a turn. Since trying to get into the hobby I have been torn between HO and N. Had a thread on here and due to my space regretfully decided to go N. I rearranged the living room to prepare for the benchwork. I started loving the extra space where the bench was going to go. Wanted to get into the hobby so pressed on. Built my bench. Was great for N scale. Started getting some N scale items in. Hated the lack of detail compared to HO and the toy like size. Not to mention the cost. I can buy a couple nice HO engines for the price of an N scale. Still kicking myself. Then, my kids figure a way to climb onto the bench. Cats are climbing. Wife is getting fed up. She puts a halt on the project. Thats fine I was uneasy and dying to go HO anyway.

I start thinking. My attic is really well vented, huge, and hardly used. It is also out of the way and a place to get away for a bit. I still get my living room space. Kids cant get into the attic without my help. No cats in the attic. Tons of room for HO. Talked to cabledawg. Loves the idea. All problems solved, everyone happy. A little more prep work and time involved getting the attic fully man cave ready but will be WELLLLL worth it in the end.

Already found someone local interested in some of my N stuff. Keeping the zephyr as I really like it. Going to move my benchwork upstairs and prep the attic. It already has lighting and electrical ran to the whole attic. Most of the flooring is done as well just need a couple more pieces of ply and some cheap carpet.

Love you guys on the forum for all of the help. Look forward to working with you guys on this as well.

Attic is 24x34.. Roof is obviously sloped so will lose some of the space on the 24 side due to that depending on table height. Attic is tall enough in the middle to fully stand up for an average size guy like myself. Plan on putting the table lower so that it can be used from a sitting position in a chair.

EXCITED! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[sstlaure]

SWEEEEET! Glad to see there are more people willing to take the dive into a large layout.

With that kind of space you could always do a multi-level and just space the bottom level out from the wall a couple of feet. You can double your mainline run in the same amount of space to be used.

Do you own this place or are you renting, planning on moving soon/ever? I ask this because you can plan the benchwork to be modular and removable if the need arises.

My staging level is set at 33" and is a great sitting height (also a great height for standing kids)

[deboardfam]

We own it... will probably be here at least a few more years. Really need to move because we need more space but with the housing market. BLAH!

Yeah I figured, I want a large layout, no matter what I go with its going to take a lot of time to get where I want to be. Misewell not rush. Take it slow. Get it the way I want instead of just trying to get something up and running. Take my time. If I want to play toss me a quick oval down around the xmas tree or something.

[deboardfam]

My plan (due to the room) is to run around the edges of the room. Kind of like a LARGE U shaped dog bone style. Be wide enough in the middle for some scenery. Have larger ends and corners to have loops for turning around and the bigger scenery settings. At 33" tall I will have plenty enough room to store the small amount of junk in the attic under the table so for the most part. The whole room is mine.

I would like to set me up some kind of desk area to work on as well.

Reading up on NIMT's tunnel and mountain how to. Will incorporate some of this in as well. What would be a good width for the center pieces of the dog bone to allow for at least 2 main lines through. Say 30" or so? Plenty enough reach still and scenery room. Then do at least a 48" end for decent radius turn arounds.

Also like the idea of having a staging area under as well. So can store a lot of engines and cars off the main grid. I have plenty enough room for the grade. Any tips on this?

[gunrunnerjohn]

I've seen some really creative attic layouts, good luck with that, I think it'll turn out great! :)

[tankist]

i'm not sure hows your setup, but even insulated attics can have temperature and humidity conditions (and the change of them itself) not friendly to layout.

perhaps not a show stopper, but just to keep in mind.

and as far as scale, yes it is hard, something got to give. but N scale have some super detailed models as well

[raleets]

Attic? What the heck is an attic? I have a couple of 2'X2' openings in the ceiling of my house that they tell me go to the "attic". ;)
I recall peeking into one of them about 15 years ago when we had a bunch of blown-in insulation added and I just wanted to see what the stuff looked like.
Then, about 5 years ago, I peeked into the other opening because my wife said she heard something "running around up there". I hit the lottery when I found some Christmas gifts that had been wrapped and "hidden" from about 25 years ago. :o
Seriously, as a young lad I lived in a three story home with a HUGE attic and it was one of my favorite places to be on earth. :thumbsup:
I would LOVE to come and help you with your attic layout. That really sounds like some fun. :D
Good luck,
Bob

[tjcruiser]

I was visiting my parent in NY a couple of weeks ago. Their neighbor across the street showed me his attic HO layout ... quite the impressive setup, with lots of custom seaport work and custom heavy-excavating equipment scenes. (One son is a fisherman, the other is in construction.)

His ceiling is angled, but tailored the layout to work around the headroom issue nicely.

And, most importantly ... it's HIS space ... the wife is basically banned!

Good luck,

TJ

[deboardfam]

Exactly my thoughts TJ.. my space. My 4 year old son said "Maddie cant bother us up there". Maddie is my 1 year old daughter. He cracks me up.
So it will be mine and his little B&M Railroad (Brendan and Maddie, my kids).

As far as humidity. Its not much an issue in Kentucky. My attic is never a problem. I know a decent amount about humidity from my years of being a cigar fan. I store clothing, electronics, etc up there now. I will have to keep the rails clean etc otherwise I think I will be okay.

Nice score on the hidden christmas presents!

[cbarm]

Congrats Deboardfam!! I just started a post on here also about takin a crack at a good sized layout. Mine is in my loft, but I have similar issues to you with the slope on the sides. I just built my benchwork a lil lower so its best viewed while sitting in a chair. Good luck n keep us posted!!

[deboardfam]

Yeah cbarm I posted on yours. I will be following! Mine will be a bit. I gotta prep the attic before I can do benchwork. I want more of a room than an attic. Doesnt have to be drywalled or anything. At least boxed in, carpeted, maybe a little paint :-)

I plan on keeping it pretty low, I have a pretty good size room to work with though. Try to keep it high enough that I can store the attic crap underneath it so its hidden. There isnt much we store up there anyway.

[sstlaure]

I set my lower level at 33" so that I could fit (2) large plastic totes stacked on top of each other underneath the layout. I can get into any tote by only moving (1) at a time. I use clear totes so that I can identify what's in any tote. (Probably have about 40 of these things - everything in the basement goes into these totes.)

I'd try to shoot for a minimum radius of 24" - this will allow you to run just about any kind of engine/car without issues.

[deboardfam]

Cool so a 4x8 at the ends and corners cut so that it angles into the skinnier part of the dog bone should make it interesting. Been thinking about track. If I want two mains and will only have loops at the ends wont I need 4 pieces of track through the dog bones? Hmm.. got lots of ideas. Can do two across the front flat on the bottom. A layer of scenery (houses, etc). Then a mountain.. then 2 across the back through random tunnels and bridges. What you think? Hard to explain. Wish I was better at anyrail.

Also, with the slanted roof, how did you guys light your layout? The fixtures would be aweful close to the layout and hard to get light spread. I have shop lights through the middle but it doesnt spread that well.

[Massey]

Glad you were able to come to your senses!! I agree that N does not look quite right but I do love how much N can fit in a given space. HO IMO looks better, and the lower cost is a big plus to me. We have already talked about that in the thread you mentioned earlier. Let see the room layout and see if we can help you with your layout.

Massey

[deboardfam]

I will have to do some work before I can get good pics of it. Its a ways away from being useful. I gotta get some new bulbs for the lights. Clean up my junk and lay down some more plywood on the spots that done have plywood.
Its pretty much a big 24x34 open room. Nothing in it except a few boxes and kids toys. A little clothes. Heavily slanted roof. The access point is at the back about 3 foot in. Its about a 2x4 hole in the floor. I'll try to measure tonight to see how far I have to come in to have about a 30" tall table or so.
Then I will be able to tell how much useable room we have. Then if I can figure out anyrail I will design my idea then we can tweak from there.

[Massey]

Did you ever see what my train room looked like when I first started? Check out my Construction Begins thread to see. I only have a 9x9 shed but it works.

Massey

[cbarm]

Massey...you better get to addin onto that shed of yours. I would say that another 10 feet to the north and 20 feet to the east should be about right. The you have one wall for your tools and 3 huge walls for trains:D:D Dont tell us ya cant do it cause we know you can :laugh:

[Massey]

LOL I would love to have a larger shed but since I dont own the shed I am not able to add to it.

Massey

[deboardfam]

Looks good massey. I love some of your buildings. Are you a NS fan? My friend works for NS.

I may have to talk you out of that big train station you didnt use ;-)

[sstlaure]

You don't necessarily need anyrail to design a layout....people did it for decades before computers. I've designed all of mine using graph paper a compass, french curve and some triangles. (all basic engineering drawing tools.) I had a few different types of switches on hand to pull measurements from and went from there.

Draw up your room to scale, make it accurate, then make a bunch of photocopies of the room so you can play around with different things. As far as peninsulas go, so long as you access both sides, you can go 5' wide and still maintain a maximum reach of 30" in on either side (put a backdrop down the middle.....or don't) If you're going double mainline, you'll want the inner radius at 24", the outer at probably 26-27", then a couple inches outboard of that so that the trains aren't riding on the edge of the abyss. 60" wide will accommodate this just fine.

[deboardfam]

Yeah but anyrail is just so much easier LOL. Especially when you got the mastermind cabledawg on it. I gotta measure how much of the 24' I am going to lose from the slant then go from there. I still got a lot of work before I can really do that. Need to finish the flooring up there and clean up everything.

I dont plan on doing a peninsula just to leave the middle of the room open. I think I will do a U shape around the edges with varying thickness. Kind of like a large U shaped dog bone style.

[Massey]

Sounds very doable. Are you going to build for continious running like you were wanting last time?

Massey

[deboardfam]

I have tons of room LOL.
My plan if I go U shaped is to have large ends that loop back and then run right next to the part that brought the trains into the loop. So like a large dog bone of track. Should make for a gargantuan continuous running.

[NIMT]

Here is one way to make 2 mainlines go into the turnsround at the end of the main and then back out again!:cool:
12255
You can get super creative with that amount of space! I have done several layouts in single and multi layer with some interesting results!:D

[deboardfam]

Nice, I have to figure out exactly what I am looking at LOL

I will see what cabledawg comes up with once I get him some measurements. It will be a little while. Gotta find time to clean the attic and measure it out.

[cabledawg]

I'm working on a 20x34 setup right now, but I have to readjust the tracks to make a "off ramp" down to staging. Not a big deal, just something I overlooked when I was plopping down track. :p

Sean, I like that crossing for the double mains. I was just going to simulate double mains by having the tracks run parallel until the turnaround, but I might try my hand at your crossing idea.

[sstlaure]

NIMT - That's exactly how I crossed the double mains on the larger layout (16x29) I have planned so that each level can have independent continuous running. The 2 branches going left (like in your pic) would go into the helix and the 2 going straight would curve around back onto the level the track is running on.

[cabledawg]

How's this look? Ignore all the junk onthe side, I'm just talking about the loop back (and they'll have to be wired for reverse loop operation). It's got 22"R on the inside and 24"R on the outside with #4 turnouts and a 12.5% crossing. Enough room for a 2'x2' cutout inthe middle for access since the space needed for the turnaround is 4.5'x4.5' so reaching across is out of the question. :(

http://www.modeltrainforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=12264&d=1319385956

[deboardfam]

Yeah looks awesome. So I could have two trains running continously? Or more?
Cutouts a great idea. Can figure out a way to put my scenery on it so its a liftout so I dont lose that much real estate for scenery. Plus I can take the liftout downstairs to work on it. Liftout looks to be about 2x2? This section can be my factory section. Looks like you put the coal tipple in the middle of one of the legs. Awesome.. awesome..

So we going to repeat this on the flip side? Then get creative in the middle of the U.. maybe a larger middle section with another lifout for a BIG city setup. Woohoo.. getting excited now. This is gonna make me get my butt in gear and start working on the attic.

[deboardfam]

To do continous running on the setup above wont I have to flip a switch every time the train comes around the loops?

[cabledawg]

This is just part of one side of the layout. I just wanted you to see the loopback. I dont even have the tipple designed yet.

You can have two trains run continous and they'll be on seperate tracks, but where the outside crosses the inside some coordination for the crossings is required so the trains dont collide :eek: And yes you'll need a total of four auto-reverse modules, two loops on each side of the run. I'll add a couple crossovers too and those may need modules as well (not sure yet).

[deboardfam]

How much are the reversing modules? Hmm

What if we just ran mainline number 2 inside of mainline number 1? Would be 4 pieces of track down the skinny parts. Would this be cheaper or more expensive really? Or look goofy? Wouldnt have to worry about any trains colliding.

[deboardfam]

Good deal?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-LOT120-pieces-HO-CODE-100-FLEXTRACK-9-ATLAS-AUTOMATIC-SWITCHES-/160666681207?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item25687aff77

[gunrunnerjohn]

Good deal?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LARGE-LOT120-pieces-HO-CODE-100-FLEXTRACK-9-ATLAS-AUTOMATIC-SWITCHES-/160666681207?pt=Model_RR_Trains&hash=item25687aff77Well, they're all brass track, that's one downside...

[deboardfam]

Yeah.. maybe I will pass. With all of the small pieces it would be a bunch of work and cost to do all the rail joiners and end up not looking so great. Good deal if your into brass track I guess. Wish it was all nickel :-)

[cabledawg]

How much are the reversing modules? Hmm

What if we just ran mainline number 2 inside of mainline number 1? Would be 4 pieces of track down the skinny parts. Would this be cheaper or more expensive really? Or look goofy? Wouldnt have to worry about any trains colliding.

I dont think it'll look good with four tracks. Hard to do crossovers and expensive to lay track. My original plan was to have a single loop on each end and have the mains next to each other to give the appearance of double mains. Only downside is running multiple trains; they need to be going the same direction or have passing sidings (also in my original plan) which still requires coordination. I have a 16x8 layout and three throttles and I find it hard to run more than two by myself anyways.

[NIMT]

deboardfam,
No you do not want those!
120 HO SCALE CODE 100 BRASS TRACK AND 9 BRASS ATLAS AUTOMATIC SWITCHES.
They are old and would require you to clean them constantly!
Brass is not the way to go, you want to stay with Nickle Silver only!

As far as the track design goes, With a minimal amount of electronics and skill the cross over design is a operationally and visually interesting!
It is not the only design out there it's just one of my favorite!

[deboardfam]

Looks neat, ok yeah we will stick with the layout plan. Sounds good. Yeah definately dont want brass track for the attic then.

cable.. Yeah my goal is to get my son to run the throttle and me flip switches. With this big of a layout and as many switches needed having powered switches would be a ton of money. Will try to find deals or just use manuals for now then replace them as I go along.

With all the diesel I have been watching lately I have been debating on making a diesel my main/fav engine. I want at least one engine with sound and the toss up is now diesel or steam.

Also.. susquehanna.. anyone familiar with this? Was it more of a NY thing?
My wife lived on the susquehanna river in MD. Thats what it reminds her of when she sees the trains I have been showing her.

[cabledawg]

I do have to agree with Sean that for operations, the double loop would bery interesting and require you pay attention. But for the person who just likes to run the trains 'round, probably a little more work and cost involved than one would desire. If I had the money, I'd build it.

On to the staging area, I have it making a 350" trip down 16" (so a 4.5% grade) to a 120" long flat area underneath the main deck. Plenty big enough to have a fiddle yard and a turntable to build some big consists. I'm not sure how to show it but I included a cross section sketch on the layout file.

Deboardfam, you could just start with the one loop and then as money comes in for the reverse modules, you can build the additional loop and crosstrack. Just an option.

[deboardfam]

True cabledawg.. with this much main on one loop and being all DCC it really wouldnt be too hard to run two trains at the same time on the same loop. The chances of them catching up to each other with someone watching would be rare.

[deboardfam]

Got in the attic today.. put new bulbs in. Looks awesome. I realized I only need to replace the piece of ply I took out to build the N layout to finish the flooring. Some roll insulation and OSB board to finish the roof.

Got a few concerns though.

If I dont heat/cool the attic in the seasons will it get too hot/cold for the layout? I live in Kentucky so we dont have extreme weather in either season. We may break 100 degrees in the summer once and may drop below 0 once in the winter.

Next question. My attic power all runs off my laundry room. I assume that trains dont draw much power due to the low voltage. Will this pose a problem running on the same breaker as my washer and dryer? The only other thing I plan to run in the attic (other than lighting) is the occasional heater/air conditoner.

[tjcruiser]

Re: house power ...

I would suspect that your dryer (if electric) runs off of 220V, rather than a regular house 110V circuit. (If gas, it would use 110.) Regardless, take a stab at what wattage of power you plan to use on your layout. Perhaps a couple-hundred watts? I doubt that would overload a suitably sized circuit. Though do check what breaker-rating (amperage) you have on that circuit.

TJ

[deboardfam]

It is definately all electric washer and dryer.. so shouldnt effect it. Then other than lighting for the laundry room and the shop lights in the attic there is nothing running on it. So I should be fine.

I am not sure how to check that on the breaker tj. :confused:

[tjcruiser]

Often, the toggle on each individual breaker (at the breaker panel) is labeled with an amperage number ... 15, 20, etc.

[deboardfam]

K I will look tonight.

Cdawg... I was actually thinking.
Since my access pointto the attic is in the middle of the room.. and to avoid the crazy loops etc.. That I can just run a table all the way around the room. I have about 3 feet of space between the wall and the attic entrance. So I can do two mains all the way around the room. Have a few wider sections for towns, coal tipple area, etc and maybe do a circle out around those or something creative. I think this will be MUCH better!

[gunrunnerjohn]

I use a Circuit Breaker Tracer (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&biw=1432&bih=922&q=circuit+breaker+tracer&gs_upl=1708l5571l0l6051l22l17l0l3l3l0l267l1900l4.9 .1l14l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=5282506685642910839&sa=X&ei=WqOqTvf0BMfk0QHsxPGzDw&ved=0CHUQ8wIwAQ) to trace what breaker is on what circuit. When I built this house, the electricians didn't feel the need to label the breakers in the two 200A panels (yep, 400A service!), and so I had about 40 or so that I had no idea what they controlled. Many were labeled "lights", or "2nd floor outlets", etc. That's a real help! :rolleyes:

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/qhYXJnNcK-PufJF--0O0ZrN5F4bFW5FVFtypQa1DvgmQufEoukfCMtL2uFoINpcgqxH RWvcDjE33RwLeUBJ0DDmBLr_-BUbHkAGTTMuIWGVvJ42Ns5QPxgE2TwL-bfTGlnRXgmVkkGyZb61Ag2YifDZyAnjynalveHl_RSGR0zJEz8 BZN9n429XGMbkLBkhFHMCLsph_5SgR9RD8Q5lQAmVZzC81yegl k3oszH51m965NUYzcfflKgRiu2DmOKwmOqob_PSdAprjYxxV8W 8n-iLS2ug6CXdQZwwBtBqkwD1NuQM

[deboardfam]

LOL GRJ.... My house is tiny and they still arent labeled well much less laid out right. Sometimes one wall in each room on one side of the house is off one breaker. The other walls are off another.

[sstlaure]

I've been zapped a number of times in this house I've been working on since January. In one case there were 2 different circuits for 2 switches inside one 2-gang fixture. I thought I had powered it down and got a real good jolt. My kids thought it was funny "Why is daddy dancing Mom?"

[deboardfam]

LOL I hate electric.. almost as much as plumbing.

So two main lines around a 20x34 loop or so, Should be pretty awesome.

[tjcruiser]

Scott ... I've done that "dance", too!

[deboardfam]

Breaker doesnt say on it but I have a feeling I will be fine. It only runs the light in there, the closet, and the attic power. Nothing else.

[gunrunnerjohn]

That's where my circuit tester comes in to play. ;)

[deboardfam]

Started breaking down the table I built in the living room today. Was a nasty day here in Kentucky plus I have been home alone with the kids so haven't had much chance to get a lot done. Hopefully will be able to get into the attic and get some plastic down and get it all cleaned up and the other section of lights changed out this weekend. I still need one more piece of ply then the floor will be done. Gotta find me some cheap carpet.

[deboardfam]

Okay just got a chance to go back up and hang my other light and measure. I have 3 feet between my entrance and the wall so.. what do you think about a 3 foot section all the way around the room? I could still reach in 3 foot without any problems except into the corners. I could do lifouts there.. That will give me plenty of room for scenery. I could make two massive main lines all the way around the room pretty easily with some random switches in between then. Then can think of some other creating parts to pass through. I want to incorporate smme mountains and cool bridges as well so maybe I will have one of my mainlines higher than the other and have it through some tunnels and bridges. Have a lower main line with a passenger set or something. Do you think 3 foot all the way around will be interesting enough? It will be a heck of an easy build. Thoughts? Suggestions?

[kursplat]

Do you think 3 foot all the way around will be interesting enough? It will be a heck of an easy build. Thoughts? Suggestions? shelf layout :thumbsup: doesnt have to be 3ft everywhere. you could knock it down to 2.5 or 2 in a couple spots if want for scenery reasons

[cabledawg]

Yeah what I'd probably do is have 18" on the 12' end sections and bring it out to 36" on the 35' long runs. Then it isnt an issue with reaching the corners but still have enough space for scenery and double mainlines. Also on those long runs you gotta remember that the ceiling is sloped so that last 6" before it hits the wall is going to be useless for most buildings and trees. A 36" wide shelf will still net a good 30" of usable space which is more than enough to fit alot of track and scenery :thumbsup:

[deboardfam]

Sweet.. good thought cabledawg. I was thinking of shortening the 12 foot section a bit too so that the slope of the roof doesnt cause any problems with making mountains. I think I like this better than the U shape that way it can have big long runs and also really easy for continous running. Cheaper in switches... etc etc. Easier for my kid to run too.

Got my little one to sleep and my 4 year old and I tackled the attic. Got all of my flooring down. Swept. I uncovered a few dedicated plugs on the floor that actually attach to different breakers so not worried about power anymore. And they are about 3 foot out from the slope so will be perfectly under the table. Couldnt be in a bettter spot. Now I just need to get to the other half of the attic as far as cleaning it out (this is the side we use for storage. Mostly junk right now so most of it will be thrown away or donated.

I am still debating on if I am going to sheet/insulate the cieling. It is about 36 degrees outside in kentucky and it felt like a good 50+ in the attic while we were up there. That is without the space heater turned on. I think if I toss a fan in one of the vents to suck air out in the summer I should be okay except for on the hottest days.

Things are looking good! I also have a few things selling.. so may start looking for some benchwork wood soon. Debating on how I am going to do it with the crappy slope.

I tried to take you guys a pic of the attic but my phone is too dead :-(

[deboardfam]

Anyone used OSB (the chip board) for benchwork? It is much cheaper. Just guessing I am going to need about 12 sheets or so for benchwork.

[tjcruiser]

You might want to consider MDF. It's relatively inexpensive (compared to plywood), and super-flat.

It'll be a bit easier to drive nails into OSB (as compared to MDF). OSB is often used for exterior home sheathing, and as such, can be rated with water-resistant glue. If you think you'll have any puddle-moisture on your layout decking, it could be a good choice. MDF doesn't like puddles.

MDF is pretty stiff ... not much sag. And, you get a bonus inch! 97" x 49" for a standard sheet.

TJ

[NIMT]

Home depot is almost always having some plywood on special. Last week they had 1/2 for $8.99 a sheet, it's not the super sanded or finest quality but it will work great!:cool:

[Massey]

You mean this stuff?

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/Shed/4a467615.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/Shed/DSCN0528a.jpg

It worked out great. One side is planed smooth and the other side is rough. I used the smooth side in all but one place. I could not use the smooth side for the last piece since it was not cut right to begin with. All and all this is the first time I have used MDF and it worked out great I would use it again.

Massey

[sstlaure]

I've found that 1/2" thick plyboard works fine (don't need 3/4" for it to be stiff) and you can use 1x4 and 1x3 lumber instead of 2x4's. It is easier to cut and to carry up into the attic.

Here's an arguement for 24" deep shelves - you'll get 16 feet of run out of a single piece of plyboard with no waste. I'd make the outer frame 1x4 lumber with stringers spaced about 24". Use deck screws, not nails. No need to screw AND glue - screwing it together yields a very strong bench and if you mess up, it's easy to disassemble.

You can space legs a good 10 feet apart along the edge of the bench if you add angled braces coming up to the bench. 5 ft would be about the longest unsupported span you'd want. Any more than that and you'll start to see some sag.

[gunrunnerjohn]

All and all this is the first time I have used MDF and it worked out great I would use it again.That's not MDF, this is MDF.

http://www.lungster.com/l/speakers/mdffaq/mdf.jpg

[NIMT]

And thats even wood veneered MDF.:D

[JackC]

The stuff with the big chips is OSB, Oriented Strand Board. What looks like fine sawdust is MDF, medium density fiberboard, wood fibers broken down that is then formed using resins, heat and pressure.

[Massey]

I meant OSB I knew what I meant I just did another of my mistypes. OSB works really well and does not warp with exposure to moisture like mdf does

Massey

[gunrunnerjohn]

FWIW, my old workbench has 3/4" OSB on it, and I've used it for 30 years. It is strong and doesn't warp. I keep meaning to slap a coat of sealer on the bench, but after 30 years, why bother? I did build a 2x8 workbench for the woodshop using OSB, and I put a couple of coats of sealer on that.

[tjcruiser]

And thats even wood veneered MDF.:D

Really? Are you teasing? Or do they really make veneered MDF? I've never seen that before.

Hmmmm ... possibilities ...

TJ

[NIMT]

Yep they do, A lot of different wood types too!
Most of the medium to upper priced kitchen cabinets are made out of it. The advantage is that it's strait and doesn't have the warp or twist that plywood gets. Feed your pocket book steroids before going to buy the stuff, it ain't cheap!:eek:
I have made several hundred pieces of furniture and cabinets over the years and it's nice and easy to work with as long as you don't make a mistake, because the wood is very thin and a small scratch will ruin it!:cool:

[gunrunnerjohn]

Yep, they make it look like almost any wood you care to name. Think Ikea. ;)

[Massey]

I used to build and install office furnature and that veneered MDF was used all over the place. Good strong heavy stuff!

Massey

[tjcruiser]

Thanks, guys. I didn't know that. I've seen veneered plywood, particle board, but never MDF. Neat. We have several Ikea pieces ... wood veneer. Possible MDF core, huh?

Good to know ...

TJ

[deboardfam]

24" would be easier on the amount of ply needed.. but.. I dont want to sacrifice any space. I am already racking my brain trying to fight against the slope of the cieling. I want to be able to do some mountains and things. Still kicking the final layout of things around.

[deboardfam]

Update: Still waiting on money for the wood.. Think I have a plan. Going to go with 24" shelves. Easier to haul, get into the attic door, etc etc but still plenty of room. I have a few 3 foot pieces already that I am going to stick in to widen a few spots for the larger scenery items. I have a couple drawings of what I plan on going with drawn up. I also decided that I am going to use the one end that is harder to look at (due to the door) for staging area so I will have a 2 foot wide by roughly 10 foot long staging area.
I also factored in a 3 foot wide section for an amusement park. Some of the working HO scale coasters are awesome.

[sstlaure]

Go with 24" wide, but space the tables away from the wall a little bit so that you can run tracks into/out of tunnels, etc into a hidden run that doesn't take away from your viewed layout area (tracks pass through backdrop behind some scenes, then pop out further down the line.)

Remember - the length of your staging tracks should be the same as the length of your maximum length train (then also make any passing sidings this same length or greater)

[deboardfam]

Yeah my dad had that idea LOL to run the trains behind my false wall in a few places. That would be interesting.

[sstlaure]

It would be a great way to utilize what is otherwise just dead space. You'll want at least 12-16" of height at the backdrop of the table to give you good perspective on your structures (unless they are all fairly short.)

You could even use that as hidden interchange traffic staging. (Put a couple of spurs back there with signals.

[deboardfam]

Yeah thatd be crazy. I am going to try to keep it as low as possible to not lose so much space. I also need to factor in some storage area for the stuff thats actually in the attic. So trying to decide on a height for the table that doesnt take too much space away from the room and not make too much dead space. Going to be rough. Gonna take some precut wood and the keen eye to get it all the way I want it.

[deboardfam]

Messing around with paint today while at work.. general idea.
The bridge I may think of moving and it needs some work.

Think i may switch my zephyr to the right hand side actually.. since I am right handed and the switches on the inside.

[deboardfam]

Updated it a bit.. but now I just realized that I am not sure where I am going to run the track on the top LOL. Too much scenery

[deboardfam]

Well.. obviously this isnt to scale so I will probably have a lot more room than I drew. This was just me jacking around in paint. Those roads in scale are probably HUGE lol.

[sstlaure]

Remember - tracks run parallel and cross roads all the time. Road crossings add interest. Also, your scenes will be more interesting if you avoid running tracks/roads parallel or perpendicular to the edge of the layout. Running them at an angle across the table gives you a better perspective to view the details within a scene. (Think about looking at a front view of a car vs a 3/4 angle view - you get a better feel for the car when you can see the front and sides.)

[deboardfam]

Yeah I tried to do that with the bridge. I also plan on having a few run behind my false wall and exiting a tunnel down the line as well. Such as going completely behind the Amusement park area and not having any trains through that section. Still a lot of tweaking but just got bored at work and started tossing down ideas.

HMMMMM... I may change up my town part with your ideas.

[deboardfam]

Maybe I am just thinking too rationally. A lot of layouts I see have places/houses out in the middle of nowhere with no roads to them. I am just thinking " how are these people going to get to these places?".

[deboardfam]

What is the easiest way for the laout not to seem flat? I think maybe a few inches of foam to carve negatives into the land etc with the addition of the method i believe NIMT put up with the screen and drywall compound to make large mountains may be best. Correct me if there is an easier way.

[Reckers]

Deboardfam, I did something on my last layout that worked well and gave everyone a good laugh. I started saving coffee grounds: once a week, I'd nuke them for about 6 minutes, then spread them out to dry. (It might require several nukes before you're satisfied.) I then mixed them with 50/50 white glue and water, and dumped it onto the layout. It molds into land contours pretty nicely, and the texture looks great. Left brown, they make beatiful freshly-plowed earth. After a few weeks, they'll develop fissures from additional drying; at this point, fill in the cracks with more grounds, spray with a spray adhesive and it should remain firm. You'll also want to treat the edges of your mound the same way: just push some dry grounds up to the edge where your coffee stops and your pink foam stops and use spray adhesive to hold it. Adding Woodland Scenic green "dust" can be sprinkled over it for meadow grass.

[Massey]

in the past I have had a foam base that I would "dig" into to make the negative features you are talking about. I have also used foam risers and then paper, paper balls and plaster to form the land forms after that, and on this layout since it is mainly running through the city itself I have made everything mostly flat. There is a tunnel in the "mountain" and the lift out section is going to be a field but no negative areas in this town. Maybe next time when I have more room I will make some negative landforms.

Another thing I have seen done is actually cutting out the wood and making a small "shelf" in the recessed area and then filling that as needed with what ever is needed. Any method would work and there is no "rght" way to do it.

Massey

[NIMT]

I have never used foam as a base, but I'm finding in my reading on here that it does seems to have some advantages over just using a plywood surface. But then again I can make wood and screen do some crazy things!:D
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[deboardfam]

Yeah that looks awesome sean. So on the last pic where the one track is higher than the other.. did you plan that head of time? Thats my concern.. the permanentness of planning.

I love your gulley in the 2nd pic down.. would be cool to make a waterfall like that.

I think I am just going to do half my attic for now.. 2 positives to that. Less work to get me up and running faster. Another project down the road for the other half of the attic. So win/win.
I am kind of at a stand still til I get some cash to get some wood for the attic. I have been working cleaning and organizing everything. Adjusting lighting etc.

[sstlaure]

Pretty sure the 1st and 2nd pics are the same area, just the 2nd pic is with landforms/scenery (just guessing.)

I think we need a NIMT layout thread - hint hint. Looks awesome.

[deboardfam]

Yeah they are the same.. hard to explain what I was asking lol. I am just trying to figure out how to plan mine ahead of building. Think its a fear of having an afterthought and having everything laid down.

I agree on NIMT thread. Looks awesome.

[NIMT]

Yes the first 2 pics are the same area it was called Pepsi falls, Two mains on top two split mains on bottom and one hidden rising grade inside/ behind the falls.
This whole layout had a semi plan that got kind of tossed after a day or two. It was going to be a 2 level layout that ended up as a multi level layout, It's a fairly large layout (45 X 34) that all the frame work is made out of cabinet grade plywood (I had a ton of it). The base scenery, wood, screen and drywall were all done in the matter of about a month.
Don't ever worry about building permanent it will always get changed!:D
I normally sit down with a pad of paper and sketch idea's and get a kind of base plan going, then I tweak it as I go. Build a section run trains back and forth or round and round and get a feel for how it's going then I alter accordingly. I'm cheating this next time Cabledawg is helping design the next layout 55' X 25' or maybe bigger???? Two main lines running the entire distance and curves no smaller than 48" radius. Should be fun.
I was supposed to already be building by now but got side tracked with cleaning up our land, then we decided we wanted to move to a bigger place. I hate putting my RR plans on hold, but it's best for now! I might work on building a switch yard over the winter that would be easy enough to move in one piece.
I get a kick out of watching Scott build because our style and rules are about the same! The only major difference is I like multi grades. :thumbsup: I don't like multi level layouts :thumbsdown:. But that is almost always dictated by space you have to work with! Hidden runs add depth and that's good!
My best advice is just start! Make your bench work consistent and screwed together that way in changes you can recycle material!
You will get a feel for it soon enough that some things work and some things don't! But it's all good because you'll be learning as you go!:D:cool:

[raleets]

Hey, Sean,
That's exactly why I screwed my new, enlarged benchwork together.....'cause I didn't want to get "scr#@ed" :mad: when it was time to try something different. This current endeavor will take me into Spring for sure and shorten the always-lovely Michigan winter. :thumbsup:
Bob

[Massey]

I second the screwed together thing!! I moved from VA to WA and took a semi portable 5x9 layout with me. Once I got here it quickly became noticable that my layout would prolly never be reassembled and the stuff was taking up valuable room in my storage unit. So out came the DeWalt and apart the layout came. I was able to salvage most all of the wood and it has been reused in my new layout.

Here check t his out!

Lower benchwork
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/5x9/SM5x9Build005.jpg

Building the tabletops
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/5x9/SM5x9Build007.jpg

Whole layout
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/5x9/SM5x9Build016.jpg

The left over wood after I have built shelves, a 90G fishtank canopy, and a few other things
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/Shed/DSCN0508a.jpg

And most of it went here!
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/Shed/DSCN0513a.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/SMasseyrr/Trains/Layouts/Shed/DSCN0519a.jpg

I only had to buy 3 new 1x4 boards to complete my new benchwork. The rest of the wood came from the old layout and what was left I gave to my neighbor to use in her fireplace.

Massey