Discouraged

[deboardfam]

Feeling kind of discouraged at this point.. figured I would post with my new friends. I am just trying to figure out whats best. My attic is a big undertaking.
There is no humidity issues or anything just afraid of the temperature in the summer and winter. I have seen it get hot enough to melt a candle in there as it sits now. If I stay in the attic I am going to sheet it, etc. The attic isnt cooled though or heated at this point. I can have a space heater up there, can also have a window unit but dont want these running full time, only when I am up there. What are the danger of these temps to a layout? If I cant go in the attic then the best I could do would MAYBE be a 4x8 downstairs. Just trying to figure out someway to get me a decent layout :confused:

[T-Man]

You will have some expansion and contraction of the track. In cooler temperatures you can leave small gaps to take up slack in the hot weather. Then you may be nailing down track too. Try to minimize the nails. You may have to adjust every season. More curves the better, because it gives you two directions (length and width radius)to take up any expansion. Straights only have one, length. Expansion is minimal so a tiny gap with every piece of flex would help.
The expansion can be figured out but I will leave it to the bridge engineers. Expansion is important, Curved pipes are used in steam systems to absorb the stresses of themal expansion.

[Reckers]

I'm going to offer my opinions---like as not, others will have comments that are as good or better advice.

First, humidity. You being in the mountains, it's cooler than for us flatlanders and less humid. However, your attic is a world unto itself and it has it's own weather. The hotter it gets up there, the more moisture---humidity---the air can support. Let me suggest you watch this condition closely. If it looks to be an issue, use the poor man's dehumidifier. Put all your cars in a box when not in use. Steal a set of your wife's old pany-hose (or your own!) and cut the leg off and fill it with rice. Put that in the box with the cars and let it absorb the moisture.

Heat will affect your lubricants. Be conscious of this and consider oiling/greasing a bit more often. Never leave any cars on the tracks: that will allow the grease or oil to run down onto the tracks when the heat is way up there. Instead, go to the box mentioned above or park them on old newspaper. That will not only soak up the old oil or grease as the heat thins them and they run, but should also provide a spectacular bonfire from spontaeous combustion...okay, change the papers when you see oil spots.

Last of all, keep your oils and grease downstairs and carry them up when you go---same reason. 110 degree grease isn't going to do the job that you expect of it, and both are flammables.

I'll be the first to admit this may be overkill, but I like to consider the worst of the worst as my starting point and make sure my plans deal with it. Realistically, I don't think you'll have much in the way of problems.

Best wishes,


Best wishes,

[deboardfam]

Cool.. I could even go as far as bringing down cars and rolling stock with me downstairs and storing them. I have a nice wine closet at the bottom of the attic stairs with extra shelves. It would limit the amount I could keep as dragging down 100s of rolling stock would be a pain. As far as scenery though you dont see an issue? Plastic buildings.. flocking.. plaster cloth.. etc? That was more my concern.. stuff I couldnt bring down or take up with me regularly. What about my dcc controller? The attic is really the only chance I have at a decent layout so I have to figure out a way. If we dont see an issue I am going to start going to the LHS once a week (payday) and picking me up something small here and there collecting.

Yeah humidity is pretty calm here, I store some electronics up there now.

[gunrunnerjohn]

As far as the summer heat, make sure you have some good forced air ventilation for the summer when you're not using it to keep the temperatures down. If you properly insulate it, and provide airflow, it won't get hot enough to cause any problems with the equipment.

[deboardfam]

Sweet.. thanks for the encouragement to keep pressing on. I am mostly doing it for my son. I have never seen him so into something. He actually pays attention and devotes time. Otherwise he is wild. I want to get a turnout or two for his bachmann stuff because he loves coupling and uncoupling. Adding in a powered turnout will add another step and more fun for him. Lets keep rocking. I will update the thread as soon as I get some benchwork going (which is hopefull soon, gotta sell my n scale engine. Another member is interested but still havent sold it yet)

[gunrunnerjohn]

You got him interested, feed that curiosity, it's a good thing!

[deboardfam]

He is only 4 but is incredibly intelligent. I cant wait to start doing scenery with him. Plaster cloth, flocking, making a mess.

[tankist]

attic can be done but it is not a simple matter and will still be at less comfortable temps. i'm not a pro house builder, but from what i know just insulating and paneling the attic is not enough. in our roof rebuild (http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=9095) we installed a ridge vent and before insulation goes in rafter vents / air channels (http://secure.owenscorning.net/Portal/uploads/document/20031130/23502-B%20RAFT-R-MATE%20ATTIC%20VENTS%20DATA%20SHEET.pdf) will be installed as well . still the southern facing side of the roof is expected to get quite hot during the summer.

i've yet to see what kind of space you working with, post pictures perhaps? but i would imagine that you can install ridge vent on your roof (that does not require a rebuild) and lay air channels between rafters before insulating. it is not to expencive. while it will not make it 100% comfortable by itself, it will be a significant impact on attic "weather" . and very probably on your entire heating bill ( sale point to your lady ;) )


http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-102-understanding-attic-ventilation/images/figure_03_vented_attic.jpg









OFF Topic. My dad is a dreamer with tons of ideas. one of his crazy plans for the roof is to create heat exchange between the rafters and harness that heat from south facing side. basically heat water with that (when possible) instead of burning gas year round. sounds crazy and not up to any US building code, i know. and while i'm rooting for conventional sun water panel i would not be surprised if he grabs himself a roof section just to play with his idea.

[tankist]

as separate post, here is very interesting read for you regarding the subject of attics, roofs etc. http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/digests/bsd-102-understanding-attic-ventilation

[deboardfam]

Yeah I was thinking of not insulating the roof, just sheeting so I still had that 4" gap for air flow from the soffit to the ridge vents I installed when I redid the roof a few years back. Will still allow for my roof to not get condensation and rot but still provide a small seal to my "train room" section I plan on building a false wall a few feet in also so that will give a large behind it still for ventilation. My attic looks just like the pic you posted. I will try to post a pic when I get home if I can get to it. My wife will be at work and I will be at home with kids dying to get into the attic to play with trains, which is fine for my 4 year old but not my 1 year old.

In short, If I am thinking correctly. I will in a way just be building a box INSIDE of my attic for the train room. I wont be totally overhauling the attic making it a full room room. I know its not gonna nice and comfy temp wise up there but I plan on making it at least bearable through the rough times. Tankist had some killer info and I may have to go that route.. I think I have sufficient venting.. just not sure about putting the insulation in the air gap. My dad really needs to take a look at it. He is the handy man lol.

[tankist]

well, standart braced rafter construction roof as below, then i don't really see how the space can be used. my attic is much higher then pictured, but I still can't stand upright, moving around is also hindered by the support webs. I assume yours is quite different.

regardless, in my non professional opinion I think you will be better of insulating entire roof (with air channels underneath). don't make it all habitable, sheet only your work area, but insulate every where. thats good money spent.
ADD: and you will see it paying back on your bill

http://www.sweethaven02.com/BldgConst/Bldg02/fig0104.jpg







just my 0.02 worth...

[deboardfam]

Yeah I agree with the raising the value. Mine doesnt have the web. Just roof (built in 1940). I can stand up fully in the middle of the peak.

[deboardfam]

Attached a few pics.. one of about 75% of the attic as I was cleaning it up. Another of my son playing with his bachman set. And another of a car I just bought on ebay.

[tankist]

hmmm, that is a very nice place, way more that i thought initially . how high is that stud on first picture? building a sheet-ed box is a good solution to reduce the volume to be heated in winter and leave pockets of air to keep everything cooler in summer. but imho at least that box should be still insulated.

can make nice around the wall layout. so no reason to get discouraged!

[sstlaure]

The (2) bedrooms in the upstairs section of my home were built starting with a roof-line like that. Small 4' tall walls were erected to create inner walls for the rooms, then the ceiling just angles up to the a flat where yours has a peak. Even with insulation on the walls/ceiling, that area is significantly hotter than the rest of the house. (typically at least 10 degrees hotter than the rest of the house in summer and 10 cooler in winter.)

I may install an attic fan that can rapidly evacuate the warm air from the area.

[NIMT]

I ran my trains in my shop in phoenix and it got up to 140 deg in there.
I never had a problem with the scenery, cars, engines or buildings.
Just track expansion and contraction issues (everything was soldered together) and overheating of the controller.
A few well placed expansion joints and a good fan system on the controller and all was good.
I guess you would call me a professional builder, General contractor and remodeling contractor for over 20 years.
I've got some hint's and tricks that I could throw your way if you want to hear them?
What is the height at the peak up there?

[deboardfam]

Tankis, I am 6 foot tall..and if i put my head between the rafters I can stand up without bending at all.. Yeah.. I definately want to make this a decent place for me and my family to play around with the trains. I would say the peak is right at 6 foot roughly. That one vertical board (used to be to hold a plywood divider to seperate into two rooms is probably 4 foot or so.. I planned on attaching a desk like section to it with a piece of ply for my controller and all of my switch panels etc.

Scott, my wife wants me to raise the roof another couple foot and build bedrooms up here.. I dont know if the foundation could handle it so its a train room ;-)

Sean, thats encouraging. I would say it only gets around 110 in the attic on our worst day. Kentucky has odd weather, no extremes in either direction. Just a decently cold winter (maybe below 0 a day or two if that) and a decently warm summer (may break 100 a day or two).. fall and spring are awesome. Except this last summer and that heat streak was nuts. I am definately open for tips and tricks to get it decent. I have a space heater that will work well for heating. Thought about a window unit to knock the heat down in the summer.

[Reckers]

deboardfam,

I'm assuming you have access to some sort of ventilation in the attic: most have a screened eve corner at each end or a fan. It might be worth your while to buy a small, cheap electric fan and mount it with with shock cords or wire and rig a thermostat to turn if off and on. Suck in outside air and let the attic's crevices vent the hot air out.

[deboardfam]

There is a large vent in each end of the attic as well as the turbine vents in the roof.
The turbin vents I may cover up with the sheeting so that they use the 4" space to vent out. I can use a fan or anything on the other screen vents at the end. You can see the vent in the first pic.

[Reckers]

If you've got the large vents and the turbine vent working, you won't have a problem. The "It's damned hot in here" temp for humans is much lower than that for trains! Incidentally, I applaud the idea of keeping the trains in your wine cellar. Some things just beg to be used together!

[deboardfam]

Yeah I need to get a couple batches of wine going. I havent made any since my wedding wine in August. Awesome. Sounds like this is a go then. Now just need to sell my N scale engine to get some cash for wood.

[videobruce]

This is just a high crawl space. Do you like bending over??
How about the basement??

(Another reason why I don't like new houses (post WWII)

[gunrunnerjohn]

I have a large 5000 sq/ft house with an attic that spans 85 feet. There are three large roof mounted fans that provide forced air ventilation, soffit vents and a full ridge vent. It never gets hot enough to damage any equipment up there, though it's hotter than I want to be for any length of time. I think the highest temperature I've ever recorded up there is 116F. I'm guessing that if I wanted to actually occupy that space, it would take quite a bit of air conditioning in the summer months, but would probably be no more problem in the winter than any other space in the house.