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Model Trains in the News See what the mainstream media is saying about our great hobby!


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Old 10-29-2013, 08:17 AM   #11
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Try this one...

http://www.energyconversions.com/

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Old 05-30-2014, 02:02 PM   #12
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do to the extreme hazard of any pressurized gas the trade off is not good, this is why personal cars are restricted to small tanks (10 gallon), only reason buses have the lpg is case of a safety waver (can not sue a bus line cause of the explosion or any gas leaks). and tax moneys given to them from the feds.

diesel is the best motor fuel on the planet....till you get to temps below freezing then gasoline is supreme. only cause diesel gels up.
heii even jet aircraft fuel and hyd fluids must be kept warm. gasoline will still vaporize at -60 F.
diesel has a low vox level and does not burn as fast as gasoline, nor does it spread like a gas fuel would. ever hear of a air fuel bomb?
fuel tanker for a loco would be what 5-10,K gallons? would need to be kept warm in temps below 40F. (read vapor lock) and a leak could take out a small city.

this is one of the reasons in a winter war russa wins. even oils and grease gel up and will not lube bearings.

i am not a researcher, just read a lot about different fuels and oils.


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Old 05-30-2014, 04:14 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
this is one of the reasons in a winter war russa wins. even oils and grease gel up and will not lube bearings
Would the Russians not suffer the same problems with their equipment......?

Actually, the Russians would win simply because they are more used to sub-zero temperatures.....plus there's just too many of them!
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Old 05-30-2014, 05:52 PM   #14
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Old_Hobo, I Googled "Population of Russia", and got 143.5 million in 2012. That's less than half the population of the USA.

packnrat, the flash point of gasoline is generally accepted to be -45ºF.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_point
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fl...els-d_937.html

As for LNG for locomotives, under engine technology as I understand it, a spark plug would be required for ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Not sure how this would be accomplished on an existing diesel engine. Or are they talking replacing the nation's entire locomotive fleet?
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Old 05-30-2014, 06:02 PM   #15
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As for LNG for locomotives, under engine technology as I understand it, a spark plug would be required for ignition of the air/fuel mixture. Not sure how this would be accomplished on an existing diesel engine. Or are they talking replacing the nation's entire locomotive fleet?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I know the CN sd40s converted to burn LNG still used 10% diesel to ignite the fuel not needing spark ignition
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Old 05-30-2014, 07:05 PM   #16
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fire21 ok i stand corrected as to the temp.

spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do.
(pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
as for burning lng in a diesel motor, one could adjust the timing and injectors...maybe????

i have not looked into multi fueled motors.

as for russa. they have always relied on using mass amounts of people to win a war.
but like the germans they did not allow for the very low temp and there oil could not work down that low in temp. if you turned off a motor it would never restart.
the russans were already set up for very cold temps.
look at our troops they came up from africa and italy. they had the wrong gear on and way to many just froze to death. some did take the clothing off dead germans. just to stay alive in the cold of a winter storm.


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Old 05-30-2014, 07:20 PM   #17
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fire21 ok i stand corrected as to the temp.

spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do.
(pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
as for burning lng in a diesel motor, one could adjust the timing and injectors...maybe????

i have not looked into multi fueled motors.

as for russa. they have always relied on using mass amounts of people to win a war.
but like the germans they did not allow for the very low temp and there oil could not work down that low in temp. if you turned off a motor it would never restart.
the russans were already set up for very cold temps.
look at our troops they came up from africa and italy. they had the wrong gear on and way to many just froze to death. some did take the clothing off dead germans. just to stay alive in the cold of a winter storm.


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Old 05-30-2014, 09:11 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
spark plug? where did i say that? for a vaperised gas leak to ignite, any spark will do.
(pending the air to fuel mix). compression will also do the job.
smaller diesel motors use a glow plug. bigger ones do not need them.
but there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school. sounded like the block was being broken out from the inside.
as for burning lng in a diesel motor, one could adjust the timing and injectors...maybe????


.
I agree, a vaporized gas leak, given sufficient oxygen, will ignite from any spark, provided the spark occurs within the upper and lower explosive limits of that fuel. I was referring to a spark plug being needed to ignite the mixture in the engine's cylinders.

Yeah, the old gasoline starter motors for diesels...lots of equipment had them. But the gas motors had spark plugs, and the diesels used compression to ignite the fuel.

I've done a whole lot of mechanicking over the years. I am not a mechanical engineer, but every engine fueled by gasoline, LNG or LPG that I've ever encountered has a spark plug to fire the mixture in the cylinder. Have you ever heard a gasoline engine "dieseling" after the ignition was shut off? They knock and bang and smell something awful. The compression is igniting the mixture outside the ideal ignition timing, thus fuel combustion is very incomplete and the knocking is damaging the engine, slowly but surely.

Locomotive said, "I know the CN sd40s converted to burn LNG still used 10% diesel to ignite the fuel not needing spark ignition." I must admit I've never heard of this system. I do know that some small 2-cycle engines (using a gas and oil fuel mixture) will diesel after shutting off the ignition switch...not often, but sometimes. However, diesel engines use a fuel shut-off to stop them, so that might be what CN is using on theirs.

The companies experimenting with this aren't stupid. They've obviously worked out a system to make it work. I'm curious as to what it is. Might be as simple as what Locomotive said, I don't know.
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Old 05-31-2014, 07:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by packnrat View Post
there was this one crane it used a small 2 or 4 cylinder (unknown to me) gasoline motor to get the diesel turning over. very old school.
Local old timer had a saw mill powered by a monstrous diesel but it was started with a 4 cylinder gasoline pony motor. Start the 4 banger and when it was running smooth he's start giving it more gas as he pulled on a lever which I guess engaged a clutch of sorts connecting the pony to the diesel. Then after a minute or two with the pony was turning over the diesel he'd start feeding it fuel, as the diesel fired up he'd start to dis engage the clutch and reduce the rpm. It was quite a balancing act he did.

If there's a proper name I don't know it, it was always referred to as a "pony motor".
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Old 06-01-2014, 02:42 AM   #20
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CN retrofitted the diesel engines in two 3,000-horsepower Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD, a subsidiary of Progress Rail Services, a Caterpillar Company (NYSE: CAT)) -- SD40-2 locomotives to run on natural gas using conversion kits supplied by Energy Conversions Inc. (ECI) of Tacoma, Wash. ECI says the hybrid fuel locomotive will reduce carbon dioxide emissions by 30 per cent and nitrogen oxide emissions by 70 per cent over a locomotive duty cycle. Click on here to view the locomotive set.

The retrofitted locomotives, using 90 per cent natural gas, with 10 per cent diesel fuel for ignition, are paired with a natural gas fuel tender, or specially equipped and protected tank car, between them. The tender was upgraded by a unit of Chart Industries, Inc., (NASDAQ: GTLS), located in New Prague, Minn. Natural gas fueling is being provided by Encana Corporation (TSX: ECA) (NYSE: ECA).


http://www.cn.ca/en/news/2012/09/med...tives_20120927

Pulled from the CN website.
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