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Old 08-14-2019, 06:50 PM   #31
Millstonemike
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In NJ, we still have plastic supermarket bags (maybe not for long?). I get two uses out each bag. The first, bringing home groceries. The second, for my general refuse. That is, I have a basket of the right size to hold the supermarket bags for kitchen garbage. I haven't purchased a plastic trash bag in several decades.

On another note, my town moved to automated garbage trucks. They only have a driver (saves labor costs). The truck's mechanism picks and empties dedicated cans provided by the town. One can for general garbage and another for all recyclables. The cans are huge (you can make a summer bungalow out of 'em).

The recycle can takes paper, cans, bottles and plastic. I don't know how they sort that mix for recycling, but it sure is convenient.

Lastly, I'm not a fan of electric vehicles. They have a huge problem when the batteries die after 5+ years ($8K to replace them). Their best advantage is recovering energy in stop-and-go traffic. And what vehicle does more stop-and-go than a garbage truck ...
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:36 PM   #32
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The recycle can takes paper, cans, bottles and plastic. I don't know how they sort that mix for recycling, but it sure is convenient.
It's actually a pretty impressive process. First, they run it down a conveyor belt, where workers pick out and discard any obviously non-recyclable items or items that require special handling (batteries). Then it goes into a huge machine, where the plastic floats and is skimmed off the top, metal sinks to the bottom, and after removal from the machine it can be further sorted into ferrous and non-ferrous by electromagnets. The paper sludge is collected, screened, pressed and dried, then shipped to a mill for conversion into other paper products. Plastics can be further sorted by type, ground, and heated to make pellets, which are often shipped to factories by rail.

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Lastly, I'm not a fan of electric vehicles. They have a huge problem when the batteries die after 5+ years ($8K to replace them). Their best advantage is recovering energy in stop-and-go traffic. And what vehicle does more stop-and-go than a garbage truck ...
It would be a mistake to judge a new type of product by it's current state. Today's electric vehicles are nothing like the ones of just a few years ago. My mother had a hybrid vehicle in which the battery pack started showing reduced capacity after about 5 years; Tesla now guarantees theirs for 10 -- longer than most people keep a car. Even 5 years would affect the resale market more than new car purchasers. Companies that are betting heavily on electric vehicles becoming big (Volkswagen, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Tesla) have also pioneered modular battery packs that could be replaced in stages, and in less than half an hour, thus mitigating the cost factor.

But in any event we could be as close as a few months away from ADVANCED Lithium ion technology entering mass production, which is touted as offering 25-30% more capacity in the same volume, and twice the life span of basic lithium ion technology.

Ford just demonstrated an all-electric F150 that could pull 10 fully loaded railroad autoracks -- 1.25 MILLION pounds! -- for a quarter of a mile. Can your diesel or internal combustion model do that?

Volkswagen AG and several other companies are rolling out supercharger networks in Europe, China, and North America that can charge your battery 80-85% capacity in as little as 12 minutes.

If you blink your eyes, the technology changes. In five short years, the mobile phone industry went from Motorola "Bricks" to the iPhone. Ten years ago, would you have imagined that you'd be carrying a computer more powerful than the one you were using then in your pocket today?
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:50 PM   #33
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All good points. Future advancement in battery technology ... a focus I recommended to Verizon Wireless as a mgt. consultant in the mid 90's.

Still skeptical, ecological, fuel costs of recharge power, battery life, etc. Compare that to current, in production internal combustion advances. If all the gas cars were the size and shape of the electrics, gas consumption would be cut in half.

In the end, electrical storage will be the winner. But it may be a century, or more, away.

As the late, great, Rodney said; "I had it rough when I was a kid, I tell ya'. For Christmas I got batteries ... toys not included."
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:12 PM   #34
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I really hope they do figure out the battery issue, and I'm sure they will....again, up here in the great white north, where temps can be below freezing for half the year, battery power in a vehicle will get eaten up real fast....

We already plug our conventional cars in when the temps are minus 25, but just to power the block heaters.....
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:42 PM   #35
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Ford just demonstrated an all-electric F150 that could pull 10 fully loaded railroad autoracks -- 1.25 MILLION pounds! -- for a quarter of a mile. Can your diesel or internal combustion model do that?
No, but the Ford F150 we use to haul train collections last February covered 500 miles, at minus 38 C, pulling a 12 ft trailer loaded to the roof with O gauge trains, and did it in 7.5 hrs.....including two 10 minute fuel-up stops.....

Existing electric vehicles can't do that yet.....
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:13 PM   #36
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You're comparing a very mature product to a new arrival. The ICE vehicle has 100 years of production experience and infrastructure development behind it. EV's have maybe a tenth of that, many of the same criticisms currently being applied to EV's were applied to ICE vehicles 90 years ago. Give the technology a chance. In ten years, EV's will have caught up.
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Old 08-16-2019, 05:19 PM   #37
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I was merely doing what you were doing.....which was comparing the two types of vehicles.....

And I have stated that I think they will eventually get there with battery power, so we're really on the same page.....
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:05 AM   #38
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I was merely doing what you were doing.....which was comparing the two types of vehicles.....

And I have stated that I think they will eventually get there with battery power, so we're really on the same page.....
That was as much in response to Millstone Mike as you. I should have said "You guys..."

I read an interesting article this morning. Loup Ventures, a venture capital company specializing in high tech companies, completed a "total cost of ownership" study comparing the Tesla Model 3, Audi A5, and Toyota Camry. You purchase the vehicle, finance the purchase over 5 years, drive 15,000 miles a year, perform all required service, and sell it at the 5 year point. The Tesla was actually the cheapest of the 3 by about $1200, although that factors in a significantly higher resale value for the Tesla. The Tesla lost half of its value over that time, the Toyota 2/3s. I suspect that the resale value of the Tesla will fall over time as more become available... but then, so will the sales price. Still, given that the Tesla's purchase price is 55% higher than the Toyota, and contains performance and comfort options more comparable to the Audi, that's pretty good. The study also ignored any tax incentives for the Tesla, since these are being phased out.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:29 AM   #39
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Lets hope that Technology can come up with something better than Lithium batteries. Otherwise we are just trading one environmental disaster for another.

The spiralling environmental cost of our lithium battery addiction
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lith...ronment-impact

Here’s a thoroughly modern riddle: what links the battery in your smartphone with a dead yak floating down a Tibetan river? The answer is lithium – the reactive alkali metal that powers our phones, tablets, laptops and electric cars.

In May 2016, hundreds of protestors threw dead fish onto the streets of Tagong, a town on the eastern edge of the Tibetan plateau. They had plucked them from the waters of the Liqi river, where a toxic chemical leak from the Ganzizhou Rongda Lithium mine had wreaked havoc with the local ecosystem.

There are pictures of masses of dead fish on the surface of the stream. Some eyewitnesses reported seeing cow and yak carcasses floating downstream, dead from drinking contaminated water. It was the third such incident in the space of seven years in an area which has seen a sharp rise in mining activity, including operations run by BYD, the world’ biggest supplier of lithium-ion batteries for smartphones and electric cars. After the second incident, in 2013, officials closed the mine, but when it reopened in April 2016, the fish started dying again.
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Old 08-17-2019, 11:38 AM   #40
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One of the laws of physics says that for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. That seems to hold true for the environment also.
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