Model Train Forum banner

Lionel's 027 Torpedo locomotives- A case study.

47K views 241 replies 19 participants last post by  balidas 
#1 · (Edited)
I became intrigued with the Lionel 1688E, after reading an article posted on CTT magazine's Forum. The article was a reprint under "Timeless Classics" as one of the features of the forum. The original article was published back in 2005, authored by John A. Grams (now deceased), who highlighted an odd 1688E that didn't look like all the others. The article stated that most of the 1688/1688E locos were all pretty common, except for the one he wrote the article about. It was the very first issued 1688E, made only in 1936, that had Forward facing open windows in the cab. When you look at the multitude of 1688's, whether 1688 or 1688E, at least 98-99% don't have that feature. When the article was written, he stated that they (presumed other collectors) didn't know how many were made, or how many are still out there.

I decided to search mostly eBay, and other sites to see if I could find one. As luck would have it, I did find one, and later two more. I presently own three of these first issues from 1936. While doing my searching I started to see a whole lot of different characteristics, that made me think that they were not all common, as most would think. An interesting note about the body/shell of these locos, is that the same body was used on Lionel's 1588 wind-up, and the 1668/1668E locos.

The only reference at the beginning of my searching, consisted of Doyle's Catalog of Prewar, but very little was found showing all the different changes in the casting, that I was noticing. I then started to do some deep research, and have been doing it for at least 5 months, looking at thousands of photos, buying different bodies, and sometimes a complete loco. I later purchased Greenberg's Guide to Lionel 1901-1942, Vol. II, "0 & 00 Gauges. That book showed and noted variations, from different known collectors, who provided the entries into his Guide. The 1688/1688E listed 8 variations. The 1668/E he showed 3 variations, and only one variation for the 1588. That total of all three loco bodies came to 12. I have since found, the combination of all three locos, a total of 26 variations. The 1688/E has a total of 18 by itself.

Attached is a PDF file of what I found, with additional information pertinent to Lionel's manufacturing process. The PDF file is 4 pages long, but if you have any interest in Lionel's production of the 027 version of the Loewy Torpedo, check it out. There was one omission, from the 1588 list. The third version, did not have a roof hatch, or the Winged Keystone.

View attachment Rev. 1-Variations of the Lionel Torpedo Castings.pdf

The PDF file is repeated in Post #40, of this thread. The original PDF file that was included in this post, had errors, and I have replaced that file, with the updated version.


This is a photo of the Open Window version

Transport Vehicle Locomotive Car Scale model
 
See less See more
2
  • Like
Reactions: Mr.Max
#27 ·
This is a body that I purchased from eBay, because it is the only one I have ever seen. I initially thought it might be a Factory Error, but with some prompting from Tjcruiser, who thought it was a Lionel Prototype, I have to agree. When I bought this body, along with three other bodies, it was painted red on the outside, but the under side was original Gunmetal Gray. I have since repainted it to Gunmetal, and am trying to decide if I want to put a motor in it.....which brings up the question of which motor?? I can install a 1688E motor, or I can install a 1668E motor, because of the additional holes for mounting.





Bumper Automotive exterior Auto part Vehicle Car


Automotive exterior Bumper Vehicle Car Family car


***Note the two E unit slots, and the extra motor mounting holes, & the small hole for 1668 motor linkage.
 
#29 ·
Pages from Lionel's 1936 Catalog

Below are two pages taken from the 1936 Lionel Catalog (reprint by Greenberg), which shows Lionel's Streamline trains. All considered part of their Lionel Jr. line, which was new for 1936. The three major locos for the 027 lineup were the 1688E, 1689E, and the 1700E locomotives. Also on the right side of the page with the 1700E, there is a small layout using different components available around this time. Looking at the components of the layout shown, I would guess it used a 913 Landscape w/Bungalow; #923 curved tunnel, and possibly the 1027 Transformer Station. It is a simple small layout, that could easily be reproduced, to match what is shown in the catalog.

Train Transport Vehicle Scale model Rolling stock


Transport Vehicle Train Locomotive Rolling stock
 
#30 ·
OK, I think I am hooked! I have the 1668 version shown at the bottom of this message. It is black, with 12 spoke wheels, Winged Keystone and the extra holes in the side like the 1688E Type III motor mounts. I am confused on the Winged Keystone. You said it was eliminated in the 1937 version of the 1688E but my guides show the 1668 beginning in 1937. Do you know how/when the transition?
 
#31 ·
Apparently we both have some confusion going on. The basic mold for the "027" Torpedos consisted of the 1588, 1688, & 1668. The 1588 was an 0-4-0 windup loco only in Black, made for 1936. The 1688 was a 2-4-2; and the 1668 was a 2-6-2 arrangement.

Now I will only throw this in as a reference point, but doesn't belong with the 027 lineup. The "0" version similar to the above locos was the 238E. If you look at the front of the 238E, there is a plate under the smokestack, that is a "keystone" style emblem. The smaller size of the 027's didn't have room to attach a plate, so the initial first mold of 1936, had an indentation at that location. It only appeared on the 1588 or 1688 locos, but NOT on the 1668.

The winged keystone was issued on the first runs and the original mold. The "Open forward facing window" version and the 1588 loco were what are referred to as Thin Casting. It was a pitfall that caused easy breakage, so in 1937, Lionel retooled the mold, and beefed up the casting to what is called Thick Casting.

The 1688/1688E was issued in 1936 and continued to 1941. The 1668/1668E was issued in 1937, which was now part of the "Thick Casting", which also added the closed cab firebox wall. Some of the unique variations that I posted are cases where a Lionel employee grabbed a body, that would have started out as one version. Your reference of the 1668 with the two extra holes in the side of the body, meant that that body should have been made into the 1688 with the third style motor (motor similar to a Postwar 1654), that used two lateral screws through the body. That same body also had an additional motor mounting hole (countersink) on top, that would be used for the 6 wheel motor of the 1668. The slots for plates, and holes for motor mounting were only done AFTER the casting was done by drilling or machining on a Solid body casting.

Does that clear things up, or did I confuse you more. If you do have the 1668 with 6 wheels, and the body has those two holes in the side, you have a unique variation!!
 
#34 ·
Unique version 1668

Bluffbeach, Yes you have one of two semi rare versions. There are 4 normal variations which are 2 Black, 2 Gunmetal, 1668E plates and 1668 plates, to make up the normal issues. The two lesser known versions are the one that only has ONE name plate on the left side. Your version is the one that has the machined holes, that would have used the Die Cast motor in a late issue 1688, but wound up being issued as a 1668. I have that same loco in my "Torpedo" collection.
 
#35 ·
Bluffbeach, Yes you have one of two semi rare versions. There are 4 normal variations which are 2 Black, 2 Gunmetal, 1668E plates and 1668 plates, to make up the normal issues. The two lesser known versions are the one that only has ONE name plate on the left side. Your version is the one that has the machined holes, that would have used the Die Cast motor in a late issue 1688, but wound up being issued as a 1668. I have that same loco in my "Torpedo" collection.
The Doc's Torpedo alarm must have went off. :p
Talk about hit and run. :D
 
#37 · (Edited)
Another version found

One of the body castings that I purchased from eBay was very unique in the fact that it has E unit lever slots for mounting the motors used in a 1688E or a 1668E, which are either a 2-4-2 or a 2-6-2 arrangement. The body casting is used by both locomotives, along with the earliest 1588 windup loco. The body that I own, is most likely a 1937 issued casting because of the Thick Casting and Closed Firebox Wall, that was introduced for that year. The 1936 body castings are thinner, and probably had problems with breakage, which Lionel rectified with the 1937 re-issue. One feature of the 1936 early bodies found on 98-99% found, is an Open Firebox Wall, where the motor is visible from the back of the loco. In 1937, that feature was modified and the Firebox Wall was added, along with making the casting thicker.

Here is the newly found 1668 loco, only due to the fact that it is complete, and has the 2-6-2 motor installed. This listed version is a "Prototype" body, similar to the RED painted one that I own, but is the Early 1936 Thin Casting. I tried bidding, but lost out to a higher bidder. If I had won the bid, I would have both the Thin and Thick casting Prototypes bodies. Such is life.

Electronic device Gun Gadget


Bumper Automotive exterior Vehicle Auto part Magenta


Helmet Vehicle Helicopter Aircraft
 
#39 ·
Just when I thought I had found all the variations, another example shows up. What surprised me was the difference of closed and open "Firebox Wall" and the thin/thick casting of these two latest finds. It definitely dates both to the end of 1936 into 1937.
 
#40 · (Edited)
New updated PDF file with additional info

Since finding basically two new versions within the last few days, I decided to update the original PDF file, to show the new additions found. The updated info is all the way at the bottom of the original file, but this is the updated version.

**** There is an addition to #4, which should be numbered 4B. This is also late transition, the same as 4A, but “Open Firebox Wall, & Thin Casting”. .There was an addition that was omitted in the 1588 section, that would describe the casting NOT having the Keystone or Roof Hatch, as noted on the other two****

View attachment Rev. 1-Variations of the Lionel Torpedo Castings.pdf
 
#42 ·
Damn the Torpedoes, Full Steam Ahead!!!

Sorry Doc but I couldn't resist the subject line!
I have the opportunity to bid on two 1588 sets. One is a freight and the other passenger. I have seen the passenger set a few times. This time I looked up the cars, 1673-1675??, and found descriptions in Greenberg's that did not match the solid red cars I find. Any guidance on the rarity or authenticity of the two sets in attachments?
Thanks!
Train Transport Locomotive Vehicle Rolling stock


Transport Train Vehicle Locomotive Scale model
 
#43 ·
1588 Clockwork Sets

Both of the Sets you show are correct, with only thing missing is 8 curve and 2 straight tracks (2-rail), as they would have been issued. Two Rail as they are wind-up, and no need for center pickup rail. The Passenger Set is ONLY RED, one book lists Orange with NRS (NO REPORTED SALES) ever being actually produced. The 1673 is Coach, 1674 is Pullman, 1675 is Observation, with only the coach having a coupler to attach to tender. The Passenger Set was offered from Lionel as Set#1548, and for Sears as Set#5134 offered for sale in 1936-1937 only. The freight set shown is also correct, with correct cars & numbers as offered for sale. Lionel Set#1549 and Sears Set#5136. Also missing are the track.

To find any 1588 that is 100% intact with the wind-up motor is quite rare, as there were not many of the 1588's made, and Lionel had a problem with Zinc Pest on the motors and especially the whistle mechanism at the front of the motor. You will often find a few 1588's up for auction, but only the actual body, and not a complete 1588 with the motor installed. For Rarity, I would put it on the high end of the scale of 1 to 7 with 7 being the rarest. They command a stiff price for just the Loco and Tender, without the added cars. A few owners of a 1588 that was purchased as just the body, have adapted Marx Wind-up motors to get them in a running condition.

A little known fact with the wind-up from Lionel, was that they were only offered in the two year period of 1936 & 1937. Lionel struck a deal with Hafner and had them use their wind-up motors, BUT to ONLY be sold in Europe, and not in the U.S. Hafner Toy Co. started in 1901, at the same time as Lionel, and a few others, but Hafner never made any Electrified trains, and only produced Clockwork locos, which were more reliable than Lionel's clockwork.

The price for what is being auctioned, (Condition looks Very Good to Excellent) would be in a ball-park range of $350+ each, even without the boxes. Both Sets are Very Very desirable.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Discussion with Auctioneer

Both of the Sets you show are correct, with only thing missing is 8 curve and 2 straight tracks (2-rail), as they would have been issued. Two Rail as they are wind-up, and no need for center pickup rail. The Passenger Set is ONLY RED, one book lists Orange with NRS (NO REPORTED SALES) ever being actually produced. The 1673 is Coach, 1674 is Pullman, 1675 is Observation, with only the coach having a coupler to attach to tender. The Passenger Set was offered from Lionel as Set#1548, and for Sears as Set#5134 offered for sale in 1936-1937 only. The freight set shown is also correct, with correct cars & numbers as offered for sale. Lionel Set#1549 and Sears Set#5136. Also missing are the track.
Teledoc, I want to confirm your description of the 1548 "set". I received my "set" and it contains two 1673 coaches and no 1674 pullman.
My auction 1588.
Bumper Vehicle Automotive exterior Auto part Grille

Auction 1588 whistle unit
Vehicle Car

Auction 1588 and 1588 Btms. Note tender coupler missing.
Auto part Vehicle

Auction 1673
Red Subcompact car

Ebay 1673,1674,1675
Red Technology Automotive exterior Vehicle Electronic device


Notice the difference between my coach coupler and the one I found out on Ebay. Is mine correct? I also will need to find a coupler for the tender. Ideas?

My last question is: How hard should I go after the auctioneer since this is not a set? I will need to look for a 1674 Pullman.
Big Difference in value?

I have not even run it yet but need to email the auctioneer today or tomorrow. Appreciate your thoughts.

Any problem running these on three rail track?
 
#44 ·
Similar Passenger cars....BUT!!

I have the majority of Greenberg Guides, with emphasis on Prewar, and I don't see anything other than RED passenger cars with the 1588. You may have another series from the same period, confused with the 1588 loco.

Lionel produced a motorized 1700 Streamline loco, with the 1701, 1702 & 1703 passenger cars with red painted frames and chrome tops. Lionel then made the Clockwork version, and renumbered the loco to #1816, with an 1817 & 1818 passenger setup. The 1817 & 1818 came in both Orange/Chrome or Red/chrome color schemes. Theoretically the 1817 and 1818 were reissues of the 1700 series, and just renumbered for clarity, if sold separately. The 1816 if in ORANGE, was referred to as "The Silver Streak". Minor variation would be if the chrome sides were smooth or fluted, with no difference in value.


1700 SERIES BELOW
Passenger car Transport Train Rolling stock Vehicle


1816 SERIES BELOW
Transport Passenger car Vehicle School bus Harmonica
 
#47 ·
Over run by Wind Ups


Teledoc, I have to agree with sjm9911. The same auction also has a 1535 Set which is basically the 1816 series you showed. I may need to break open the piggy bank.
Text Font Document Paper Menu

Not to be stubborn but the attachment is the page from my Gb showing the odd description for the 1673. Glad you clarified since I favor that one. I don't think I can surpass my 1070E set as far as a Torpedo freight set is concerned.

I has asked the auctioneer for more info on the 1588's and the 1816. Keeping my fingers crossed!
 
#46 ·
Sjm9911, They carry stiff asking prices if in complete & running condition. Lionel didn't rely on Clockwork trains, as Hafner did. Lionel only produced the less expensive trains in the middle of the 1930's, to get them past the depression. They only made roughly 8-10 different clockworks in 1935-1937.
 
#48 · (Edited)
I didn't go into specific detail about the trim color, as it isn't actually stated in the Guide book. The only significant trim deviation is fluted or smooth side chrome. You reference is just a price guide. The books I have are full blown Guide books, with known variations listed, values based on condition, etc. My guide books have photos of a majority of what is listed. I have a few hundred dollars worth of Lionel Gudes, covering 2 7/8 & Standard Gauge, Prewar 0 & 00 gauge, 1 book on Ives/Hafner/Dorian locos, and about 6 books on Postwar. That is where all this info comes from, and I can typically answer any question on Lionel.

As mentioned previously, don't be surprised at what either Set sells for, with last minute "Snipe" bids. Anything under $250 will be a bargain.
 
#49 ·
Teledoc, I didn't doubt you for a second! Just wanted you to see the source of my confusion. I don't doubt I will be sniped but sometimes I am very lucky.
Did you by chance see my post about a New Haven 0217? I have asked the auctioneer for more pics but it seems to have everyone stumped.
Thanks again!
 
#50 ·
Duffy, After looking at your Price Guide description I decided to investigate a little. It seems that the Price Guides (no matter what year, I have 2008 edition) has an error with regard to the 1673 Coach. If you notice the Aluminum or Gray windows is only mentioned for the 1673 and not the others. The 1673, 74, 75 are completely RED only. I suspect someone erroneously took the colors of the 1700 series cars which would have had Chrome or Silver painted sides, as variations of the 1700 series. OF the 4 Guide books I own, none mention anything deviating on the 1673 car. That notation of the two colors only shows up in the price guides, and was never caught and corrected.
 
#51 ·
Auction Success (I Think??)

Well after waiting about a month, my auction happened! I did get the 1588 Streamliner set #1548. This is the only Streamliner I own.
Train Transport Locomotive Vehicle Rolling stock


Transport Train Vehicle Locomotive Scale model


Land vehicle Vehicle Transport Train Scale model

I couldn't resist the Mickey Freight set #1532.

Ironically the 1588 Freight set went for less than either of these. I passed on this one
Just shows how fickle these auctions are!

I am finding there are more auctions than I can keep up with. Probably a good thing.
 
#53 ·
I love a local auction. Train auctions are less appealing due to increase in the competition. Luckily my wallet is slim so I have to zero in on a few items and work it out from there. Even at an ordinary auction with some trains, was a frenzy . :)
 
#55 ·
Duff, Looking at your last picture with the 3 cars side by side, I have to say that you actually have the 1673, 1674, and 1675. IF I am correct, the left side should be the 1675 Observation Car. The car in the middle appears to be the 1674 car, and the right side is the 1673. Do two of the cars have the vestibules, that would attach with the long pin through the body? The middle car and the one on the right side of the photo, don't have the same ends. The middle car is fully open, and the one on the right appears like a doorway opening. If that is the case, you have the correct cars.

The coupler is wrong on the one shown. The correct coupler should be a 1688T-8 long shank HOOK COUPLER, and not a Latch coupler as shown.

If I am wrong with my assessment of the Coach and Pullman, let me see different views of the ends of the cars.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top