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Lionel's 027 Torpedo locomotives- A case study.

47K views 241 replies 19 participants last post by  balidas 
#1 · (Edited)
I became intrigued with the Lionel 1688E, after reading an article posted on CTT magazine's Forum. The article was a reprint under "Timeless Classics" as one of the features of the forum. The original article was published back in 2005, authored by John A. Grams (now deceased), who highlighted an odd 1688E that didn't look like all the others. The article stated that most of the 1688/1688E locos were all pretty common, except for the one he wrote the article about. It was the very first issued 1688E, made only in 1936, that had Forward facing open windows in the cab. When you look at the multitude of 1688's, whether 1688 or 1688E, at least 98-99% don't have that feature. When the article was written, he stated that they (presumed other collectors) didn't know how many were made, or how many are still out there.

I decided to search mostly eBay, and other sites to see if I could find one. As luck would have it, I did find one, and later two more. I presently own three of these first issues from 1936. While doing my searching I started to see a whole lot of different characteristics, that made me think that they were not all common, as most would think. An interesting note about the body/shell of these locos, is that the same body was used on Lionel's 1588 wind-up, and the 1668/1668E locos.

The only reference at the beginning of my searching, consisted of Doyle's Catalog of Prewar, but very little was found showing all the different changes in the casting, that I was noticing. I then started to do some deep research, and have been doing it for at least 5 months, looking at thousands of photos, buying different bodies, and sometimes a complete loco. I later purchased Greenberg's Guide to Lionel 1901-1942, Vol. II, "0 & 00 Gauges. That book showed and noted variations, from different known collectors, who provided the entries into his Guide. The 1688/1688E listed 8 variations. The 1668/E he showed 3 variations, and only one variation for the 1588. That total of all three loco bodies came to 12. I have since found, the combination of all three locos, a total of 26 variations. The 1688/E has a total of 18 by itself.

Attached is a PDF file of what I found, with additional information pertinent to Lionel's manufacturing process. The PDF file is 4 pages long, but if you have any interest in Lionel's production of the 027 version of the Loewy Torpedo, check it out. There was one omission, from the 1588 list. The third version, did not have a roof hatch, or the Winged Keystone.

View attachment Rev. 1-Variations of the Lionel Torpedo Castings.pdf

The PDF file is repeated in Post #40, of this thread. The original PDF file that was included in this post, had errors, and I have replaced that file, with the updated version.


This is a photo of the Open Window version

Transport Vehicle Locomotive Car Scale model
 
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#56 ·
Doc,
I did not label the pics properly. I received two 1673's and no 1674. I edited the entry to keep this thread accurate. It is one of the best, most complete I have seen thanks to you. I am asking about taking the auctioneer to task, about the "set" description, because there was no 1674. The Ebay cars are a full set and look restored.
I thought the latch coupler looked wrong. I will find the correct coupler for the tender. THANKS for the correct part number. It will make things easier.
Finally ran the 1588 and tender, great with the whistle on and off. Looking forward to seeing the whole set running around.
The 1506 Mickey engine is a beast! The bell didn't slow it down much and it rolled on the 3rd curve. Hoping Mickey tender and the other cars will slow it down. Do you think 3 rail track will harm the Mickey tender?
 
#57 ·
Duff, If I am looking at your photo of the three cars side by side, all three look different from each other, from the angle you used. I copied the photo, and labeled the cars as I see them, compared to other photos of the cars from a 1936 Catalog, and the various books that show photos. Here is the photo with labels, as I see them.
Red Power inverter Technology Electronic device Automotive exterior


The car labeled Coach looks like the end wall has a "Doorway", and is partially closed in on the two side of the doorway. The Pullman labeled one, shows the end fully open, with the Observation car on the right. Do the middle and right side cars look identical, and you just didn't give me a correct angle to compare??

The 3 rail track may work, but I am not 100% positive. All you can do, is give it a try. There is specific track to activate the shovel mechanism in the Stoker. I would have to do some real digging to get the right track identity.
 
#58 ·
Doc,
The three cars are not the ones I bought. I agree with your description. The single car is the Coach I did buy and received two instead of one Coach and one Pullman. Do you think there is a big difference in value between the correct set and two Coaches and an Observation?
I will play with the Mickey tender and three rail. No need to take more of your time.
Overall I am very pleased with what I received. I am finding that you have to be very specific with the auction houses about what the lot really contains. The other one I asked you about (263E/263W) finally conceded they screwed up and will revoke the auction.
Maybe you should get a job as a consultant for these guys????
 
#59 ·
Now it makes a little more sense that the photo is not your set. I was under the assumption that they were what you bid on. I have no idea what you paid, but I would be satisfied with what you got. I would just be on the lookout for the connect car. I am slowly searching for a decent set of those passenger cars, myself. I have the Coach only, at present.

The 263e is now in your favor, and they plan on rectifying the situation.

Many sellers including Auction houses that deal with trains don't have the time to understand the little idiosyncrasies of certain trains and their variations. Many assume that they have what would be considered a set, when it really isn't. All they want is to make the sale. I just happened to read an article about the 1688E, that I had never seen before. When I started researching, I soon realized there were many variations, and I decided to document my findings. This thread is the results of what I found. I just decided to share it with others. It seems interesting enough that there have been over 3000 views. I just enjoy the research, and if it seems interesting enough, I share my findings.
 
#61 ·
I guess you might bid on it?????? I just sent you a PM about my newest purchase of the passenger cars. OF course the seller listed them as the 1700 series cars, which they are definitely not. They are the 1673, 74, 75 that goes with the 1588/1588T to make up the Set #1548. I will have to try and get enough 2 rail track to be able to use it as intended.

Are you getting to the point that you can't control yourself with unique Tinplate.....???
 
#64 ·
Old Sacramento Train Museum

Anyone that is into tinplate has to put this on their bucket list! I am visiting relatives in Davis, CA while driving a 1991 Land Cruiser from Portland, OR back home to Amelia Island, FL.
I had forgotten that the Central Pacific started from Sacramento heading east to join the Union Pacific. The real loco's and cars they have are hard to imagine.
On the top floor they have model trains. I am still a novice but I have never seen so many Standard Gauge trains on display AND in operation. I highly recommend it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#65 ·
Dieseler, I just weighed both motors as a comparison of the weights. The 1688 motor weighs 15.6 oz. versus the 1668 motor weighing in at 20.6 oz.. So with the extra wheelset of the 1668 @ 20.6 oz., would most likely be a stronger puller, against the lighter 1688.

I also weighed the bodies of the 1668 at 22.8 oz., and both the "Thin Cast 1936 version" weighs 13.8 oz., and the "Thick 1937-1941 version" weighing 21.1 oz.. The 1668 total weight about 43.4 oz. give or take. The 1688 comes in at 29.4 oz. thin cast; 36.7 oz. in the thick casting. I have all the casting variations of both the 1668's and 1688's plus the wind up 1588, which wasn't calculated.
 
#67 ·
Dieseler, Not a problem, as I have a postal scale, and still have the locos to finish assembling back to running order. I need some parts to complete assembling the motors, such as axles and wheels. The wheel sets are kind of expensive, and can only be ordered in a complete set of four. I also need to put E units back together, as I have them in pieces, without the drums. Have fun deciding in which one, and any questions, just fire away.
 
#69 ·
Thanks John for the heads up with Hennings. Some of the wheelsets need to be 8 spoke wheels to be correct. The later issues are 12 spoke, and one axle requires a hub for the linkage. I'm in no rush, but will have to check up later with what Hennings has to offer.
 
#71 ·
Research to appear in next Vol. of Greenberg Guide

The research that was done to create the PDF file at the beginning of this thread was mailed to Bruce C. Greenberg about a week ago. I just received an email back from him, and he was surprised by what I had uncovered with all the variations of the Loewy Torpedo castings. The next issue of an update on the Prewar Locos will appear near the end of 2017. He will be adding my research in the new issue, giving me credit for the work that was done, along with photos.

Now I have to finish assembling all the pieces of the variations.
 
#73 ·
The funny thing about it, I was reading an article from CTT, in "Timeless Classics" with the unknown version of a 1688E and Open Forward facing windows. I decided to try to find that version, (I now own three), and all the versions I looked at were different from each other. I had to document it, to establish all the variations I saw. The Greenberg Guide only touched on 8 versions of the 1688/1688E. I found 18+ of just the 1688/1688E. It extended into the shared body of the 1588 & 1668. Now it will be in print eventually.
 
#75 ·
Thanks Dieseler, and it was fun doing the research. It took close to a year of looking at all the one's listed for sale on auction sites, and deciding to buy the various different ones to document what I compiled. Along with learning all the variations, it became apparent that the 1935-1936 time frame was a major turning point in Lionel's surviving the Depression era, and moving forward to what it became during the late Prewar into Postwar era. This time frame was the major starting point of Lionel gearing more toward O and 027 gauge trains, and getting away from the more expensive Standard Gauge offerings. It made it more affordable, to buyers to get into the O and 027 aspect. I learned a lot while doing the research, but it was fun doing it.
 
#77 ·
Balidas, You will be hard pressed to find the open window version, and I was made aware of it from an article in CTT's "Timeless Classics". I initially didn't think much of any of the "Torpedo locos", but that article spurred me into searching for that elusive version. As the article was written, it stated that they have no idea how many were made with that feature. I own three of them, and know that there were nine others offered on eBay. It was during my searching that I discovered how many slight variations there were, from 1936-1941. This loco was one of the most produced during that period. I have all the major body variations, and it will be in Greenberg's next Prewar book, that he is presently working on. Have fun trying to locate one.
 
#79 ·
Rough shape isn't a bad thing. The motors are easy to rehab, with the only major issue being the need for original 8 spoke wheels, that go for $40+ shipping for complete set of four. The paint isn't an issue either, if stripping it. Basically a piece of cake to make like new.
 
#81 ·
Another 1588 wind up version!!

Just when I thought I had found and recorded all the versions of Lionel's "Torpedoes", I find one that I missed. The 1588 wind up, along with the 1668 & 1688, all share the same basic body casting. I know from my research. The one common thread to the 1936 issues, was the "Thin" casting, (1936 only), an open firebox wall, (motor visible looking into cab), a square roof hatch on the cab roof, and one version with the 'Winged Keystone', above the Headlight. The other version had no keystone. The newest find doesn't have the Keystone, nor does it have the roof hatch. The 1588 now has 3 known versions, instead of 2.

I still search all three locos to see if any new Unknown feature shows up. Oh, the mysteries of Prewar Tinplate!!!
 
#82 · (Edited)
Set No. 1548 with 1588 loco

Below is the majority of components that comprised the 1548 Outfit, with the clockwork 1588 loco, and 1588T tender, followed by the passenger car set of the 1673 Coach, 1674 Pullman, & 1675 Observation Cars. These passenger cars ONLY came in Red, and never in Orange, (which contradicts one book), saying it was offered in both colors. No evidence of these cars ever being offered in Orange, has been documented. These cars also had NO journals, which is standard issue.
Magenta Vehicle


Land vehicle Vehicle Transport Train Passenger car


Land vehicle Vehicle Transport Rolling stock Train


Transport Rolling stock Railroad car Train Vehicle


Passenger car Rolling stock Transport Vehicle Train


Transport Rolling stock Train Vehicle Passenger car


Transport Train Red Rolling stock Vehicle


Land vehicle Transport Rolling stock Passenger car Vehicle


Transport Vehicle Train Auto part Locomotive


Electronic device Technology Camera accessory
 
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