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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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T-Man, What does the collector plate show, Lionel 027 or Lionel Jr., and does it have a firebox wall, in the cab. Or is the cab an open cab, where you can see the motor?
 

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Yard Master & Research
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Discussion Starter #4
A recent purchase. The shell is in nice condition but the motor was neglected. The armature was so dirty I removed the wheels to get to it to clean.


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I could attach a drill to it to spin it and used 400 grit on it.

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The bench test was good. The jumper connected the brush plate to the coil. The transformer was attached to the frame and the other coil connection.


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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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The body looks in very good shape, compared to how bad the armature looked. It had to be really bad, to have to remove the wheels. It looks 100% better. With the Lionel Jr. tagging, and the motor mounting, your loco is the late 1936 transition into the 1937 series. The cab will have the open firebox wall, thin casting, and the lack of the winged keystone & square roof hatch, defines the dating. The other noticeable item is the transition from 8 spoked wheels, (early to 1936 issues), to the 12 spoked wheels, which came into play at end of 1936, then into 1937 and later. The side rods on the Pre 1937 issues, usually are peened hubs, where the later issues were attached with screws. Your loco has peened hubs, attaching the side rods. You will wind up with a very good runner, when it’s all done.
Here is comparison of 1936 open cab, and the 1937 & later closed cab wall.
1688 comparison.jpg
 

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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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The other thing I noticed was the wheels are not correct, with the Lionel Jr. tagging. They should be only 8 spoke wheels, but the fact that your loco is from the end of 1936, entering into the 1937 period, it might have had 12 spoke wheels mounted. Looking at your photo, the 12 spoke wheels would both have had "counter weights", which yours, only shows the hubbed wheel having the counter weight, and the other one is missing the counter weight. The previous owner must have changed out the one set of wheels, with the incorrect wheel set. The only good part with this type of motor, it doesn't require any quartering of the wheels. It is up to you, if you want to correct the wheel set, to having counter weights on both sets of wheels.

What I have is an open cab, 027 plate with a Lionel Jr style motor.
It came with the box too.

View attachment 510024
 

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Yard Master & Research
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
This is the first engine I have seen with brass rims. I measured the driver out to 1 1/8. My 1668 has 1 1/16 driver. I like the look.

With no pictures of the wheels off, the backs were different. They must of been replaced.

At post number 4, 3 are visible, the two geared are different.

One tricked I learned after cleaning the armature is that I could use the 400 grit with the motor running to clean it out more.

I worked on it this morning and go it running on the track a fun engine. Thank you for the information. I bought it through some TCA members. He knows I love a basket case.

The shell is clean but not perfect with only minor front damage. In 1936 my parents were still teen agers!

Thanks again
 

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Brass rims... wow that's neat. Were any wheels like that mass-produced or are they more likely home-modified by a machinist just doing what was necessary to fix the wheels he could get a hold of?
 

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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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I have no idea what the wheels would have come from, but the axles are 1689E-27 splined axles. The same ones used 1937 & later, with 12 spoke wheels. The earlier 8 spoke wheels had smooth axles # AM-84 axles. If you’re happy with the look, keep. What you have. I use 1200 grit sandpaper with the motor running, to further polish the armature faces, after initial cleaning, & reassembly.
 

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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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Looking at the photos of the wheels, and Gerard's comment, the brass rims are the stumper. I would be inclined to say that they were a custom job. I don't know of any wheel sets that had brass rims. If in fact, that these were custom made, the person who did it, did a fantastic job, of placing those rims on existing wheels. I would leave those wheels on, making it unique, from the normal drivers. Excellent job.:smilie_daumenpos:

This photo shows, where the one wheel doesn't have the brass rim seated, all the way down on the inner wheel. That seems to be another reason that it appears to be a custom job. Also, the bottom plate shows Lionel 027, which makes it 1937 vintage, as that was the first year for that to appear, replacing the older Lionel Jr. tags. The motor itself is what I refer to as a Type I, parallel plate motor, with the horizontal plate to attache the motor, through the running boards. There were 3 different motors used which you can find, in my PDF file, in the Torpedo thread.

1688 brass rims.jpg
 

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Yard Master & Research
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Discussion Starter #14
Another one 1688

I couldn't believe the brass! I wonder why the previous owner was willing to depart with it. He may have been a TCA member I will have to ask my middle man.

Here is the next one. Definitely not a 36.

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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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I edited post #13, to add a photo, and additional info, about the motor, and the brass rims. This latest posting shows what I determined to be a 1939 issue, because of the motor used, and the way it is mounted. The body is 1937 "Thick Casting" with the firebox doors added to inside of the cab. This continued from 1937-1942, at the end of production. This motor is referred to as a Die Cast motor, and is identical to the Postwar 1654 motor. It gets mounted with 2 1/4" screws (2), that pass through the body, from the side, as compared to the earliest motors which were mounted through the running boards. This last motor is what I call the Type III. The other motor, between these two, is Type II, which used a single 2 1/4" screw, back near the cab, that passed through the body, and was the same as a variation of a 1664 motor. The 1664 motor, had two versions of mounting.
 

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Yard Master & Research
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Discussion Starter #17
I always thought the cast motor was much like a sleigh.

I had a spare wheel but I changed the axle with two different wheels. All it needed was some cleaning.

Thanks for the information.

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It is never a good sign to have this piece fall out
 

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Moderator Torpedo Emeritus
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I’m surprised you couldn’t use Epoxy, to rebuild that E unit drum. I have had similar results, with drums disintegrating. In most cases, it makes trouble shooting, easy.
 
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