[ARENA]

GOOD EVENING TRAIN ENTHUSIASTS. I AM RELATIVELY NEW TO THIS FORUM. HOWEVER: I HAVE BUILT A RATHER UNIQUE O GAUGE EMPIRE. I LIVE IN A SOUTH SUBURBAN ILLINOIS AREA. MY PROBLEM / CONCERN. I HAVE SEVERAL INDEPENDENT TRAINS RUNNING OFF TRADITIONAL TRANSFORMERS. I WOULD LIKE TO CONVERT THESE ALL TO REMOTE CONTROL OPERATION. HOWEVER: I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THIS. IF ANYONE CAN ASSIST ME AND IS CAPABLE AND WILLING TO ASSIST ME IN THIS TRANSFERENCE, I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT. MY NAME IS " JERRY " MY E-MSAIL TO REACH ME IS AS FOLLOWS > [email protected] Many Thanks for your interest and willingness to help 03_18-2023

 

[Lehigh74]

You can’t get there from here.

Not with conventional locomotives that you are operating with transformer throttles.

You need one of the control systems such as MTH DCS, Lionel TMCC or Lionel Legacy…and locomotives that operate with the MTH or Lionel systems.

Another option is to get a Lionel LC with LC controller or LC+ / LC+2 locomotive and a Lionel universal controller.

 

[ARENA]

BOB , IS THIS PROCESS DIFFICULT ? SOME OF MY ENGINES MAY BE OLDER. I REALLY DON'T KNOW. THEN AGAIN, I HAVE SWOME MODERN ENGINES AS WELL. WILL IT BE A HIT OR MISS TYPE OF PROJECT ? YOU MENTIONED ABOVE, LIONEL TMCC, LIONEL LEGACY AND EVEN MTH DCS. WOULD ONE BE A BETTER FIT FOR ME THAN ANOTHER ? ( I ONLY HAVE LIONEL AND MTH ENGINES ) However: I DO HAVE ONE DIESSEL , WILLIAMS ENGINE. YOU ALSO MENTIONED A LIONEL LC WITH LC CONTROLLER OR LC+/LC+2 LOCOMOTIVE AND A LIONEL UNIVERSAL CONTROLLER. IS THIS TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THAN THE SYSTEMS YOU PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ABOVE ?? WHAT SYSTEM WOULD BE THE LEAST COMPLEX FOR ME TO INCORPORATE AND WIRE TO MY TRANSFORMERS /?? AS YOU CAN SEE, I'M NOT VERY PROFICIENT AT THIS AT ALL. ANY HELP OR DIAGRAMS YOU CAN OFFER WOULD CERTAINLY BE APPRECIATED. THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN, BOB JERRY ARENA 03-19-2023

 

[T-Man]

I suggest you visit the Lionel webpage and read up on their products. They have information and videos to get you up to speed.

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

What Bob was pointing out is that there's really no "upgrade path" available from so-called "conventional"operation (controlling operation from the transformer controls, primarily by varying the voltage fed to the track) to any form of "remote control" (typically by dedicated hand-held controllers or a phone or tablet-based app), period, full stop.

Yes, there are some more modern engines that can be operated in "conventional mode" on a conventional layout (and. BTW, while doing so are unable to use their most modern features), but to do more than that, you'll need to pick a more modern control system (all of which require new hardware that is fabulously expensive and/or has availability issues BTW), keep any of your current stock of engines that are compatible with that system, and retire/sell off all your conventional or non-compatible engines. The good news is that your track will likely require only minor modifications, if any, and your rolling stock will likely still be usable (though there may be compatibility issue with operating items), but I suspect you'll be in need of replacements for pretty much all of your engines.

My suggestion? Don't even think of trying any such conversion until you are fully up to speed with modern systems, and know their respective strengths and weaknesses backwards and forwards. I feel your pain: I run entirely conventional postwar equipment, and wish there was some way to dabble in more recent stuff, but there really isn't AFAICS! Good luck!

 

[Lehigh74]

If you have modern MTH or Lionel locos, you may be able to operate them with DCS or one of the Lionel systems. If you can give a description of the locos (item number is best, but manufacturer, road name and cab number will work) someone here can tell you what system(s) will work. Most modern MTH and Lionel locos will work in either conventional or remote.

Williams locos are conventional operation only.

Lionel LC locos will only work with the supplied remote and will not work in conventional. Lionel LC+ and LC+2 locos will work in conventional and with control systems noted on pages 68 and 69 of this catalog. The current (actually not yet available) Lionel full system is on page 226 of the catalog. Lionel Trains Catalog

Current (also not yet available) MTH full system is 50-1039 | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS (mthtrains.com).

Previous MTH systems include those starting on page 6 of this catalog 2020 Volume 2 O Gauge Catalog (mthtrains.com).

Any of the remote systems will work with your current transformer. Some need to be connected with wires. The LC/LC+/LC+2 do not. Generally, what you would do is set the transformer control at around 18 volts and use a handheld remote, tablet or smart phone to control the loco. All of the systems have a learning curve. The LC/LC+/LC+2 are probably the easiest.

Also, if you are using an older transformer with modern locos, you may need to add circuit protection since the breakers in older transformers are not fast enough to protect the boards in modern locos.

 

[ARENA]

What Bob was pointing out is that there's really no "upgrade path" available from so-called "conventional"operation (controlling operation from the transformer controls, primarily by varying the voltage fed to the track) to any form of "remote control" (typically by dedicated hand-held controllers or a phone or tablet-based app), period, full stop. Yes, there are some more modern engines that can be operated in "conventional mode" on a conventional layout (and. BTW, while doing so are unable to use their most modern features), but to do more than that, you'll need to pick a more modern control system (all of which require new hardware that is fabulously expensive and/or has availability issues BTW), keep any of your current stock of engines that are compatible with that system, and retire/sell off all your conventional or non-compatible engines. The good news is that your track will likely require only minor modifications, if any, and your rolling stock will likely still be usable (though there may be compatibility issue with operating items), but I suspect you'll be in need of replacements for pretty much all of your engines. My suggestion? Don't even think of trying any such conversion until you are fully up to speed with modern systems, and know their respective strengths and weaknesses backwards and forwards. I feel your pain: I run entirely conventional postwar equipment, and wish there was some way to dabble in more recent stuff, but there really isn't AFAICS! Good luck!

Steve

If you have modern MTH or Lionel locos, you may be able to operate them with DCS or one of the Lionel systems. If you can give a description of the locos (item number is best, but manufacturer, road name and cab number will work) someone here can tell you what system(s) will work. Most modern MTH and Lionel locos will work in either conventional or remote. Williams locos are conventional operation only. Lionel LC locos will only work with the supplied remote and will not work in conventional. Lionel LC+ and LC+2 locos will work in conventional and with control systems noted on pages 68 and 69 of this catalog. The current (actually not yet available) Lionel full system is on page 226 of the catalog. Lionel Trains Catalog Current (also not yet available) MTH full system is 50-1039 | MTH ELECTRIC TRAINS (mthtrains.com). Previous MTH systems include those starting on page 6 of this catalog 2020 Volume 2 O Gauge Catalog (mthtrains.com). Any of the remote systems will work with your current transformer. Some need to be connected with wires. The LC/LC+/LC+2 do not. Generally, what you would do is set the transformer control at around 18 volts and use a handheld remote, tablet or smart phone to control the loco. All of the systems have a learning curve. The LC/LC+/LC+2 are probably the easiest. Also, if you are using an older transformer with modern locos, you may need to add circuit protection since the breakers in older transformers are not fast enough to protect the boards in modern locos.

 

[ARENA]

Steve

Steve,
I really appreciate your response. Honestly, I have built a rather impressive O Scale train layout. I have a total of 12 trains running at one time. Plus one bumper street car operating.
However all of it being done with 4 independent ZW transformers.
It has taken me several years to put it all together. I’m a Veteran and somewhat handicapped. However; I still do the best I can.
At this stage, I thought transferring over to remote operation seems out of the question and very costly. At my age, and point in life it doesn’t seem worth it. I honestly did not know the particulars of changing over. If someone lived close to me and was handy, I’d welcome their expertise. I guess I will just have to struggle with what I have. Thanks for all your responses. Jerry. 03-20-23

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

Steve,
I really appreciate your response. Honestly, I have built a rather impressive O Scale train layout. I have a total of 12 trains running at one time. Plus one bumper street car operating.
However all of it being done with 4 independent ZW transformers.
It has taken me several years to put it all together. I’m a Veteran and somewhat handicapped. However; I still do the best I can.
At this stage, I thought transferring over to remote operation seems out of the question and very costly. At my age, and point in life it doesn’t seem worth it. I honestly did not know the particulars of changing over. If someone lived close to me and was handy, I’d welcome their expertise. I guess I will just have to struggle with what I have. Thanks for all your responses. Jerry. 03-20-23

No problem, Jerry. First, congrat's on putting together your layout -- in many ways, it sounds like a logical end-point for my own journey! I'm currently up to five trains running on four loops on an eight by eight foot layout, with the capacity to add a sixth train on one of the loops, all powered by one ZW and all running conventional, but as I said, it's crossed my mind that it would be nice to be able to dabble in more modern control equipment, but AFAICS, the cost and complexity of adding that capacity, not to mention the ferocious learning curve, using more modern train control systems has held me back from attempting to do so. Even if you were able to locate a local guru who could guide you through the process, the cost and availability issues I keep reading about would likely be a stopper IMHO. sigh

I bet if someone came up with a modest, easy, low-cost way to offer a simple portable command control system upgrade path, even one with limited features and less-than-universal compatibility, they'd have a winner for quite a few of us pre- and postwar conventional operators. The closest I've seen is a guy who came up with a voice-control system (through Alexa) using relays and diodes to control his layouts entirely through verbal commands. I installed a version of his system (omitting the speed control he came up with, since it required a special bank of control relays) on both my main layout and a 'test bed' layout I use for projects. Here's a video of an early test of the system, which I've further refined since. Pretty crude, really, but it does inject a bit of the 21st century (or the 25th century?) into my toy train setup!

 

[gunrunnerjohn]

GOOD EVENING TRAIN ENTHUSIASTS. I AM RELATIVELY NEW TO THIS FORUM. HOWEVER: I HAVE BUILT A RATHER UNIQUE O GAUGE EMPIRE. I LIVE IN A SOUTH SUBURBAN ILLINOIS AREA. MY PROBLEM / CONCERN. I HAVE SEVERAL INDEPENDENT TRAINS RUNNING OFF TRADITIONAL TRANSFORMERS. I WOULD LIKE TO CONVERT THESE ALL TO REMOTE CONTROL OPERATION. HOWEVER: I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO THIS. IF ANYONE CAN ASSIST ME AND IS CAPABLE AND WILLING TO ASSIST ME IN THIS TRANSFERENCE, I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT. MY NAME IS " JERRY " MY E-MSAIL TO REACH ME IS AS FOLLOWS > [email protected] Many Thanks for your interest and willingness to help 03_18-2023

I think the first step here is to tell us exactly what you currently have, be specific. In point of fact, almost any conventional locomotive can be converted to command operation, I've done them from the really huge to the really tiny. Note that if you have a lot of locomotives, this process could get expensive!

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

I think the first step here is to tell us exactly what you currently have, be specific. In point of fact, almost any conventional locomotive can be converted to command operation, I've done them from the really huge to the really tiny. Note that if you have a lot of locomotives, this process could get expensive!

John, please educate me, or at least pin down what I don't understand:

First, no one is saying you can't convert to command control from conventional, only that there is no modestly priced way to do so as a practical matter, unless the "command control fairy" has blessed you with unlimited funds, equipment, and expertise/guidance. Sure, the track and current power supplies from most conventional layouts likely would suffice for now, but if I understand it correctly, you will also need to acquire several layers of command control equipment with which to send and process the necessary commands, and all of the motive equipment will need to be compatible with that command control system (or can be relegated to run in conventional mode, which sort of defeats the purpose of converting, no?).

Second, from what I've picked up from on-line chatter, the whole array of "command control" systems is in quite a bit of transition, at least in the O scale world, with limited availability of (and very expensive price tags on!) older versions of the needed hardware, and the newer versions are not only not available, but without even a reliable ETA. So, it's not really a matter of running down to the local hobby shop and plunking down a few bucks for a hand-held controller.

So, let me ask -- can you buy, for instance, a current box set that will allow one to set up an operating command control system on one's layout (please forgive any mis-use of the proper terms -- I mean anything that will allow remote control of the trains, as the OP envisioned, regardless of the proper nomenclature) at a reasonable price? My limited understanding is that the answer is no -- you need a lot of additional control hardware that is of limited availability, and at a very elevated price even if it is available. Do I have it wrong? I'd love to hear there is a reasonable 'upgrade' path . . . but I'm not holding my breath . . . 😕

 

[Lehigh74]

As far as I know, unless you can find new old stock, the only way at the moment to go remote in 3 rail O with new equipment is to get a Lionel LC loco with included remote or LC+2 loco with a separate universal remote (or smart phone/tablet).

 

[gunrunnerjohn]

That's about it for today Bob.

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

As far as I know, unless you can find new old stock, the only way at the moment to go remote in 3 rail O with new equipment is to get a Lionel LC loco with included remote or LC+2 loco with a separate universal remote (or smart phone/tablet).

So, someone like the OP could buy just a Lionel LC (LionChief?) loco, plunk it down on an otherwise conventional layout, and control it with the included remote or software on a separate smartphone/tablet (I assume you'd have to advance the transformer throttle, but otherwise make no other changes to the layout), without having to buy or install any other control hardware? May I assume the handheld/tablet will offer limited features, or will it access all features offered by the engine? Can it control other command control-equipped hardware, or is it limited to just the one loco? Inquiring (postwar) minds want to know . . .

 

[Lehigh74]

The Lioncheif is limited to one remote for one loco. It also will not operate in conventional so probably not attractive to someone that might want a loco that will do either.

The LC+2 can be operated with a handheld universal remote that can have up to 3 locos loaded on it. The LC+2 can also be operated in conventional.

In either case, you would set voltage at around 18 and use the remote to control the loco. So operating a conventional loco on the same loop at the same time would not work out.

Features are somewhat limited with the LC/LC+/LC+2 handhelds, probably a bit less limited with the app and probably even less limited with the full system when that comes out.

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

The Lioncheif is limited to one remote for one loco. It also will not operate in conventional so probably not attractive to someone that might want a loco that will do either.

The LC+2 can be operated with a handheld universal remote that can have up to 3 locos loaded on it. The LC+2 can also be operated in conventional.

In either case, you would set voltage at around 18 and use the remote to control the loco. So operating a conventional loco on the same loop at the same time would not work out.

Features are somewhat limited with the LC/LC+/LC+2 handhelds, probably a bit less limited with the app and probably even less limited with the full system when that comes out.

Thanks, Bob. Given an appropriately powered loop of track, may I assume you could operate two or more LC locos at the same time, each with its own remote? What is "LC+" and "LC+2", and are they compatible with LC, or at least can operate on the same layout?

 

[Lehigh74]

Yes. You can operate a number of LC/LC+/LC+2 locos on the same loop. And you can operate up to 3 LC+/LC+2 with the same remote. And you can operate them with other MTH DCS/Lionel TMCC/Legacy locos. But you would need to pay very close attention to keep them from going nose to tail. The speed adjustment is qualitative for Lionel. For MTH, you can set a scale MPH for each loco so it’s easier to keep them separated.

 

[gunrunnerjohn]

Lionchief has no cruise control, so it's speed varies on curves or grades.
Lionchief Plus adds cruise control, fan driven smoke, electrocouplers, etc.
Lionchief Plus 2.0 is the pinnacle of the Lionchief line and adds TMCC command control and full Railsounds to all the other features.

 

[Steve on Cattail Creek]

Lionchief has no cruise control, so it's speed varies on curves or grades.
Lionchief Plus adds cruise control, fan driven smoke, electrocouplers, etc.
Lionchief Plus 2.0 is the pinnacle of the Lionchief line and adds TMCC command control and full Railsounds to all the other features.

Thanks, John -- the chart is very helpful. To the point, though -- can you buy new locos with LC+ or LC+2 together with a hand-held controller (or software that can be installed on your smartphone or tablet) to access all the listed capabilities, without the need for auxiliary hardware?