Help identifying pre war army train...

7893 Views 45 Replies 7 Participants Last post by tjcruiser, Jul 26, 2012

smpldezine

Discussion Starter · Aug 2, 2010

4

Hello all, I am new here and I do not have a huge collection but have inherited my grandfathers Lionel "army" train set from when he was a child. I am guessing pre war but can not find any information on this set. Can anyone tell me a model number or where to even start with this set please? Should I try and restore it, sell it, keep it? I have the transformer and original 0 gauge track with it as well. The bottom half of the box was destroyed but have the top half as pictured. TIA :thumbsup:

- Ryan

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21 - 40 of 46 Posts

T-Man

· #21 · Aug 3, 2010

By all means congratulations. On both your inheritance and future wedding.
To avoid confusion, the 154 motor is the same motor in the 203. It does not have the same id tag but is mechanically the same.
Price guides are ok. The prewar should be stable enough. The modern gudes I don't like. They tell you the rare from the common but for the most part so much was made that prices waver. Some boxcars I purchased were listed for 60 and I got them for ten. So much for credibility. It is also the reason I dislike placing values on modern items too.

tjcruiser

· #22 · Aug 3, 2010

smpldezine said:
I'm sure she'd love an old tank loco as a wedding present haha that might just pay for the divorce that would soon follow lol

:thumbsup:

:thumbsup:

Reckers

· #23 · Aug 3, 2010

T-Man said:
By all means congratulations. On both your inheritance and future wedding.
To avoid confusion, the 154 motor is the same motor in the 203. It does not have the same id tag but is mechanically the same.
Price guides are ok. The prewar should be stable enough. The modern gudes I don't like. They tell you the rare from the common but for the most part so much was made that prices waver. Some boxcars I purchased were listed for 60 and I got them for ten. So much for credibility. It is also the reason I dislike placing values on modern items too.

IMHO, price guide books were created to artificially inflate the prices of the items listed. If you stop to consider where the data originates, it has to be from professional sellers. Those people have a vested interest in reporting that items sell for higher than they actually did sell. It creates the expectation that a $10 boxcar should sell for $60 "because somebody said so."

That said, I agree with T-Man....super-old and rare sale prices are going to be based on an actual sale. They should be more reliable.

smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #24 · Aug 3, 2010

Will the price guide at least give me a place to start? I don't even have anything to compare it to sale wise because I can not find any others that sold...

Reckers

· #25 · Aug 3, 2010

In your case, the price guide is a very good place to start: let me explain. You have a #203, and let's say there are 20 remaining in the world (I have no idea how accurate that is, it's just a number I made up). The only way to estimate a selling price is....to see what the last set sold publicly went for. It's easy to track, in that an auction house would have posted an announcement of one for sale, and the price was announced at the conclusion of the sale and was recorded. Note I said "public sale" because private sale records aren't public knowledge.

Now in contrast, let's take T-Man's $10/$60 boxcar. The people who compile the price guides solicit their information from professional sellers: I feel pretty confident ebay is not going to track all the on-line auction data and forward the information out of generosity. You then have two levels of sale for the same item: what T-Man buys it for on ebay ($10), and what a professional seller wants to see posted in the guide as the "Official" selling price of $60. The difference is that we know T-Man actually bought one, whereas we don't know any of them sold for $60. The seller, who provided the price, stands to benefit if he can convince a buyer it's worth $60 because the book says it is.

So....on your train, I'd see the book price as a reasonable expectation of the price it will sell for, but not a definite price. The true measure of it's value is established by a buyer with the desire to buy it and the amount of money he's willing to part with to own it.

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Big Ed

· #26 · Aug 3, 2010 (Edited)

smpldezine said:
My parents have a PO Box if it comes to that I would use. I called the National Toy Train Assoc and they were very helpful. It is #203 and not 154 and both cars are #900. They recommended I get the Greenburg pocket price guide to Lionel trains 1901 - 2010 so I just ordered it. Should be here by the weekend and I guess I will go from there. That's a great idea about investing in another train to pass on and good point. I will def search for a pre '70 set though. Thanks again for the help everyone!

Greenbergs 2010 guide
Tank #203,$1100 good shape /$1800 x shape
Ammunition cars #900, $120/$340

And you got the box. Box might go for $500 alone. Yes you can't go by the guide as t says,
BUT LET ME TELL YOU IF YOU GET THE RIGHT PERSON, I CAN SEE THIS SET GOING FOR $3000 AND UP!

BUT IF YOU HOLD ON TO IT YEARS FROM NOW IT WILL BE WORTH TRIPLE!:thumbsup:

If you sell it or post it on e bay please lets us know.

I would keep it !

As T says you can't all ways go by the guide but I have seen stuff listed for $60 and go for $160. All depends on who's bidding.

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smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #27 · Aug 3, 2010

Guess I should waited on buying the book haha too late now. Thanks for the info, thought it'd be much higher than that since it is so "rare". Guess I'll be hanging on to it.

Big Ed

· #28 · Aug 3, 2010

smpldezine said:
Guess I should waited on buying the book haha too late now. Thanks for the info, thought it'd be much higher than that since it is so "rare". Guess I'll be hanging on to it.

You are not going to pay for the wedding and the house!:laugh:

Is that all you got? The Tank and 2 cars and box? Or do you have more?
Track and transformer not worth that much.

tjcruiser

· #29 · Aug 4, 2010

With an item this rare, you may find that past sales may or may not be reflective of today's achieve sale value. The economy is cyclical (as we all know with the state of affairs today!), and so is the train collectors market. Speaking of which ...

Ed (or others) ... are you aware of any price-tracking benchmarks that have traced the value of model trains (in general ... not necessarily specific items) over a course of many years / decades? It'd be quite interesting to see how that trends, and if (as I would expect) the market today is dipped below a peak of some years ago.

You say "triple in value" ... likely, I'd assume ... as will anything given enough time. But one has to compare that with inflation rates, present-value costs, and the like.

For the record, Doyle's price guide did NOT list a value range for the 203 ... "too rare to predict", or something to that effect. I'd be curious to know how Greenberg determined its 203 value range.

Cheers!

TJ

Boston&Maine

· #30 · Aug 4, 2010

I have not been following this very closely, but why is this army locomotive being called a 203? I thought that a prewar 203 was a switcher? :dunno:

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smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #31 · Aug 4, 2010

Boston&Maine said:
I have not been following this very closely, but why is this army locomotive being called a 203? I thought that a prewar 203 was a switcher? :dunno:

Correct me if I'm wrong but that 203 is from 1940/1941. Not sure why they did it but when I do my searches, 99% of the time, that engine shows up.

smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #32 · Aug 4, 2010

big ed said:
You are not going to pay for the wedding and the house!:laugh:

Is that all you got? The Tank and 2 cars and box? Or do you have more?
Track and transformer not worth that much.

I know I can't pay for both but it would have been nice to help with our wedding. It's going back under lock and key until I find the right buyer. I'd also like to know how Greenburg came to that price... the two shops I took it to yesterday could not give me a value on it.

I do have the track and transformer as well but like you said, not worth too much.

Boston&Maine

· #33 · Aug 4, 2010

smpldezine said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but that 203 is from 1940/1941. Not sure why they did it but when I do my searches, 99% of the time, that engine shows up.

Yes it is... I just find it odd that Lionel would use the same product number twice

Reckers

· #34 · Aug 4, 2010

I am soooo gonna pass on the opportunity to pick on O gauge, here....*L*

tjcruiser

· #35 · Aug 4, 2010

Two 203's ... 1917 tank/loco, and 1940-ish steamer above.

Same thing with 249 ... prewar tinplate steamer, and 1958 plastic Scout type steamer.

Probably several others, too.

Big Ed

· #36 · Aug 4, 2010 (Edited)

smpldezine said:
I know I can't pay for both but it would have been nice to help with our wedding. It's going back under lock and key until I find the right buyer. I'd also like to know how Greenburg came to that price... the two shops I took it to yesterday could not give me a value on it.

I do have the track and transformer as well but like you said, not worth too much.

I was going to offer you $500 in my first post before I said anything..

I'm all ways looking to steal a deal.:laugh:

If I were you I would keep it and set up a small track to run it. Or build a little diorama to display it. A small piece of track a couple little hills and some army men UNDER A GLASS TOP would be nice!

If you and your future are planning on kids, it would make a nice item to pass on from dear old Grand dad. (keep it in the family:thumbsup

And since it is rare now ,wait 20 years from now and see what it will be worth.

He is watching right now to see what you will do.

One note, even though yours looks in fairly good shape. It is far from being in excellent shape. And even if you restore it some won't touch it as they want original.

Build a small diorama under glass to display it and hang on to it.:thumbsup:

Keep grand dad from haunting you!:laugh:

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smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #37 · Aug 4, 2010

That's a good idea to display it like that. No plans on ever running it and its currently packed back away in a gun safe... Maybe do a display come fall/winter. I'm sure my grandfather will be proud either way but I'm sure he's happy that I was able to find out its history from all you guys. Thank you so much as it makes me appreciate it even that much more now.

T-Man

· #38 · Aug 5, 2010

The only way to find prices is to subscribe to auctions, for you train. The interent is slowly improving on prewar information. It may be months or years to find more. Prepare to pace yourself. The number 203 as you know is not unique. In 1917 They had no long range plan and were just making toys. The company started out of a garage. You item is already close to 100 years old.
Maybe you should read up on the company history you own a part of it.

smpldezine

Discussion Starter · #39 · Aug 6, 2010

I have been reading into their history and am getting more and more excited about being a part of it. The price guide came yesterday and as stated its at 1100/1800. They did have a new section on boxes which was intresting and they said it will be growing as the boxes are being valued more than the pieces. Does anyone have older greenburg guides that states the value of this 203/900s? Just curious if it is going up, staying steady or dropping. The book seemed to say anything pre-war is becoming more and more popular and their values are steadily rising (which makes sense). But my parents were offered a number quite a bit higher (than the book) for this set about 6 years ago so that's why I am curious.

tjcruiser

· #40 · Aug 6, 2010

Per my question to Ed (and others) above, I'm wondering if the model train collector's market (dollar value) peaked a few years ago, and then has settled out, or even come down a notch as:

a) the overall economy has taken a tough turn, and

b) our older generations that compose a large percentage of collectors are sadly dying off, with their prized collections hitting the market en mass, lowering overall prices.

Just a theory, on my part, but I would welcome agreement or dispute from others.

I do think than any market lull is temporary, and that as the economy picks up, and a newer / younger generation of collectors gain interest, the overall valuations will rise.

My thoughts, anyway ...

TJ

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