Model Train Forum banner

I'm back, new house, new layout plans

8K views 116 replies 10 participants last post by  All-Scale Railfan 
#1 ·
I had reintroduced myself after a two year hiatus and I'm here for some advice and help. My last layout I was working on, I had a 10x10 ft room to work in. I got my wish, sort of, of some extra room with the new house. The new room is 17 ft by 10 ft-kind of. Here it is roughly drawn up in SketchUp.
Rectangle Line Slope Parallel Font

So I spent some time trying to come up with what I should do. I will be using Kato Unitrack, because I have a bunch of it. So I've been playing with that in AnyRail for about a week. I came up with a few layout ideas. But none of them is quite perfect. I want to incorporate a coal mine, intermodal yard, saw mill, engine shop, and car repair shop. I also like the idea of a double main line to have trains passing in opposite directions while others are doing local runs of drop-off and pick-up. I want long run times, or as long as possible given my space constraints with prototypical train lengths, or as best as can be done with 2 or 3 locomotives. Bottom of benchwork will need to be at least 48 inches to accommodate my desk/racing sim.
Idea #1
L-shaped dog bone. Too busy on the long side and too empty on the short side. Roughly 15 x 10 ft. 12 inch grid.
Slope Rectangle Font Parallel Pattern


Idea #2
I liked this idea until I started to go through running the layout in my head. Yellow is the main yard, red is the engine and car repair shop, light blue the saw mill, the purple would be the intermodal yard, and green the coal mine. Several elevation changes, tunnels allow trains to "disappear" and reappear for more visual interest. But overall, not pleased with how I think it would operate. Still 15 x10 ft on a 12 inch grid.
Rectangle Slope Plot Font Line

Idea #3
Probably the best one I've had so far. But still not ideal. I'm not crazy about the 3 foot layout depth at 50-52 inches since I'm only 68 inches tall. Duck under the yard to a triangular space to operate from. River on the left side. Incorporates the desired elements I want. It seemed boring visually, so I started adding some of the generic buildings and trees in AnyRail to give me an idea of how it might look. Yes I used a grain mill to simulate a coal mine. The row of 6 buildings was to simulate a town. Still 15 x10 ft on a 12 inch grid.
Slope Line Parallel Font Diagram


I want thoughts and input on what I should do. Idea #3 is the closest I've gotten to an idea I like. But I'm also not opposed to a 2 ft shelf around the room (even if it means hanging the door so it swings away from the room), I just don't know where to start for that. Around the room would be about a 50 ft run and maybe throw in a peninsula to make it closer to 60 ft. I've also toyed with the idea of a narrow shelf around the room double decked layout, but I would need to either wrap around the room once to make the elevation change, or build a helix or two. I've got everything I need minus benchwork (unless I need more track) and I can't do that without a track plan.
 
See less See more
4
#2 ·
If I may make an unusual suggestion?
Instead of first planning on paper based on room size; get your office stuff arranged in a preferable location in there, and then using boxes of still unpacked stuff of saved empties/seasonal decor etc, stack those up to occupy space the proposed layout would consume. This way to can determine if an aisle/peninsula is even a good idea in the area, and if 3ft minimum aisles will work? You may discover that getting things out of the closet & out of the room would be easier without a peninsula? Bumping into stacked boxes would give you a full size mock up layout to navigate, adjust, rearrange, etc… Which works a lot better than 2D paper planning.
Once you have that area with sufficient elbow room, closet access, and desirable aisle positions in the full size mock up, tape off the outline on the floor to get exact dimensions of the layout foot print. In fact you may want to have a “Plan B” arrangement too. Then paper plan track to fit that area.

As an example; it seems second nature to put a computer desk against a wall. But you may find it is better positioned center of the room straight in from the door, rathe4 than having to walk around the layout peninsula? Window access may also play a role in layout design.
On the other hand, you may find an indirect route to the closet and utilizing that 6’ angled wall with a 4x8 jutting into the room with an attached L shape heading toward the right wall and down toward the bottom wall… With office desk located under the 4x8 area. That would put the aisles around the walls, layout center as an island design, computer desk accessible in a straight line from the door, and closet access would require walking the perimeter of the room. The mainline would be shorter but only by 2-3ft which may be worth it?

I would play around with full size “box mock ups” to decide what location and arrangement works best. I did this. I went through about 6 or 7 arrangements, having 2 or 3 eureka moments in that journey. Just my opinion. Worked so well for me I wouldn’t do it any other way. Results may vary.
 
#4 ·
If I may make an unusual suggestion?
Instead of first planning on paper based on room size; get your office stuff arranged in a preferable location in there, and then using boxes of still unpacked stuff of saved empties/seasonal decor etc, stack those up to occupy space the proposed layout would consume. This way to can determine if an aisle/peninsula is even a good idea in the area, and if 3ft minimum aisles will work? You may discover that getting things out of the closet & out of the room would be easier without a peninsula? Bumping into stacked boxes would give you a full size mock up layout to navigate, adjust, rearrange, etc… Which works a lot better than 2D paper planning.
Once you have that area with sufficient elbow room, closet access, and desirable aisle positions in the full size mock up, tape off the outline on the floor to get exact dimensions of the layout foot print. In fact you may want to have a “Plan B” arrangement too. Then paper plan track to fit that area.

As an example; it seems second nature to put a computer desk against a wall. But you may find it is better positioned center of the room straight in from the door, rathe4 than having to walk around the layout peninsula? Window access may also play a role in layout design.
On the other hand, you may find an indirect route to the closet and utilizing that 6’ angled wall with a 4x8 jutting into the room with an attached L shape heading toward the right wall and down toward the bottom wall… With office desk located under the 4x8 area. That would put the aisles around the walls, layout center as an island design, computer desk accessible in a straight line from the door, and closet access would require walking the perimeter of the room. The mainline would be shorter but only by 2-3ft which may be worth it?

I would play around with full size “box mock ups” to decide what location and arrangement works best. I did this. I went through about 6 or 7 arrangements, having 2 or 3 eureka moments in that journey. Just my opinion. Worked so well for me I wouldn’t do it any other way. Results may vary.
My wife had a similar suggestion. Move the furniture in there (bed, dresser, etc) into my office and get my computer and racing sim in there, but she suggested I just build track on the floor and move the desk/sim around as needed. The bright side to that closet is about 75% of what's in there at the moment, is my train stuff. A few empty boxes from the racing sim and one tote of christmas tree ornaments. Access to the closet would be good, though I've got direct access to the attic over the garage through the bathroom across the hall for storage. But access would be good, especially without needing to do a lift out section or something similar.

And you may have just given me a eureka moment in regards to desk/sim placement. I was thinking put it against the wall. My computer is what runs the racing sim (Forumla 1 2022, software for the wheel/pedals/motion platform), so they can be any arrangement adjacent to each other, even if it means they are under a part of the layout. Even in the center of the room under a peninsula. Don't have to worry about cords because If it's under the layout, I can't walk/trip over it. So I can almost plan whatever shape, so long as I have the overhead clearance to fit the sim/computer desk under the layout.
 
#3 ·
Also;
Of the 3 plans you posted, I like #2 best… but I’d relocate the yard. I’d put it front and center of the 90 degree turn, with a ladder near the passing siding and near the double diamond area. This throws a 90 degree turn in the middle of the yard, which everyone would say is crazy, but it’s not. They’d be correct that you cannot couple/uncouple in a curve, but you’d have basically two yards, the West Yard and South Yard. That would enable trains to leave either yard in either direction. It would allow very long unit trains to sit staged, and the yards could serve different functions as well, such as Classification/Sorting and Storage/Overflow or even a Coach Yard.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Also;
Of the 3 plans you posted, I like #2 best… but I’d relocate the yard. I’d put it front and center of the 90 degree turn, with a ladder near the passing siding and near the double diamond area. This throws a 90 degree turn in the middle of the yard, which everyone would say is crazy, but it’s not. They’d be correct that you cannot couple/uncouple in a curve, but you’d have basically two yards, the West Yard and South Yard. That would enable trains to leave either yard in either direction. It would allow very long unit trains to sit staged, and the yards could serve different functions as well, such as Classification/Sorting and Storage/Overflow or even a Coach Yard.
I'll have to play with that in the software and see what works. I've tried a yard on a turn before and it was a pain, both on paper and in practice due to me using Unitrack. But something I've thought of trying while paper planning. IIRC trying to get things to line up on a 90 degree bend with the turn out spacing was the problem. Just trying to model it now and it would require many expanding track pieces to work. But it could be done.

Something like this?
Rectangle Slope Line Font Parallel
 
#9 ·
So this is kind of what I'm looking at doing now I think. Total distance of the double main line is about 1260 inches. So 630 inches for the full loop or about 1.6 scale miles. Should allow for some good long runs, and I'll avoid blocking the entrance to the room and the closet.

But I haven't decided on exactly how I want it to go. I have visions of a "bridge" to maybe a second level, or an elevated portion of the layout from the U-shape near the door, across the room towards the windows.

The turns on either side of the door would be backdropped, but the U in as you walk in the door would be open to both sides. It won't be the plate style double main line the entire way, but portions would be. I'd like to have some parts that separate a little, like the S near the closet, so one track could be a level grade, while another climbs or descends to join it's elevation eventually. I know the north end of the yard isn't connected to the rest of the mainline in this picture, but it's progress towards a layout I think I'll enjoy.

Part of me feels it might be easier or harder to find a portion of the UP (almost all the locomotives I have are UP) I'd like to model (Evanston sub seems popular in N and HO) but I don't know enough about the actual subs to choose one to model. In Shreveport when I was stationed there KCS ran right by my neighborhood and I had wanted to model that, but not enough locos in the current paint scheme were available. There was also a UP yard in the area. Here in Royston there is a local line that runs between NS north of us in Toccoa and CSX east-southeast of us in Elberton.
Rectangle Parallel Symmetry Pattern Auto part
 
#12 ·
Yes it would be open. The square area by the door and then duck under the U to access the “island” aisle way if you will.


Unfortunately I don’t know much about the UP; they’re yellow, that cliche mustached villain who ties up damsels and leaves them on the rails was inspired by the original CEO or something, and the employ some great track inspectors. cough

I have heard of the Evanston Sub, but only from Roy Smith’s youtube channel. No idea where it is geographically. Wyoming maybe? Or Utah? His oval helix was a godsend for me.
Sounds like you’ve got a great deal of research ahead. Though it sounds like a location that interchanges with Eastern roads appeals to you? So that may be a lead to follow. Maybe more St Louis or Tulsa (big big big aviation maintenance center there if you have aircraft cars etc), or Shreveport as you mentioned. I’m not sure if Amtrak interests you but pretty sure one goes through Shreveport; whereas the Evanston Sub is only an alternate route (from what Roy Smith stated). Then of course is Nebraska, which even plywood might be too hilly scenery wise. But having North Platte Yard “nearby” opens a flood gate of possibilities.
It’s gonna be a tough call.
While a location that is popular to model has pros & cons, someplace not as often modeled does too. That’s a very personal choice & thus no wrong answer.
I follow Roy on YouTube and came across someone modeling Evanston in HO as well. If I could get some shells that were already painted in NS/CSX for my current line up of locos (SD60, SD70M & ACe’s, ES44’s) I’d be fine choosing something prototype wise to model from either company. But I’d also be happy to stick with UP and do a prototype or just something that suits my liking.

Right now I’m just trying to wrap my head around how to get two levels that connect but aren’t so vertically separated I need to run around the room to get there. I’m not opposed to a helix but they take up a lot of space and I don’t know where I’d put one.
 
#11 ·
Unfortunately I don’t know much about the UP; they’re yellow, that cliche mustached villain who ties up damsels and leaves them on the rails was inspired by the original CEO or something, and the employ some great track inspectors. cough

I have heard of the Evanston Sub, but only from Roy Smith’s youtube channel. No idea where it is geographically. Wyoming maybe? Or Utah? His oval helix was a godsend for me.
Sounds like you’ve got a great deal of research ahead. Though it sounds like a location that interchanges with Eastern roads appeals to you? So that may be a lead to follow. Maybe more St Louis or Tulsa (big big big aviation maintenance center there if you have aircraft cars etc), or Shreveport as you mentioned. I’m not sure if Amtrak interests you but pretty sure one goes through Shreveport; whereas the Evanston Sub is only an alternate route (from what Roy Smith stated). Then of course is Nebraska, which even plywood might be too hilly scenery wise. But having North Platte Yard “nearby” opens a flood gate of possibilities.
It’s gonna be a tough call.
While a location that is popular to model has pros & cons, someplace not as often modeled does too. That’s a very personal choice & thus no wrong answer.
 
#14 ·
I'm working on refining the shape of the tracks to look more "natural" and still trying to figure out a way to add a second layer to the layout. I have an idea for that, it may only be a single line up there with a loop about 8 inches above the main layout, so not double deck, but much higher than any mainline variations.
 
#16 ·
That is kind of the direction I'm leaning with the double main. They will be nearby, sometimes completely parallel, but other times they will split and run at different elevations. Then the outer most line may branch off and elevate even higher to a separate single main run. I can see it in my head, it's just figuring out how to make it work now.

This is as far as I got today. Starting to get somewhere. Near the closet is a spot where the two main lines will split, one eventually splitting off to head across the room, maybe to a wye, and climbing to a slightly higher elevation on the U-shape near the door. I haven't quite worked out what the upper loop will do. Might need to get the lower level figured out and built before I move on to the upper level. I had thought of doing a folded dog bone as well. Having the double main climb up to a second level, but you can't then do any cross overs from one side to another with out reversing polarity.
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Pattern
 
#17 ·
So I've been playing with the idea above and in order to get what I want out of the layout, I think I'll have to include a helix and make it two levels. So here's what I've got so far. Helix in the closet (just take the doors off it) and the upper level will be 10 inches above the lower level. About 3% grade on the elevation changes. Total track is about 10 scale miles, but that includes the yard and helix. So likely more like 6-8 scale miles of running.
Slope Line Rectangle Font Parallel
 
#18 ·
Pardon me for saying this, but yuck. It’s the circle helix, in a closet that is huge red flag. Bad location for access, and enclosed are always bad too.
But you’ve already got a better location in that plan. You see that peninsula over toward the right? Put an oval shape helix under that area, open on the sides with a central backdrop. Easy to see, access, watch, and clean, from three sides no less.
That’s how mine will be.
Don’t thank me, thank Roy Smith and his Evanston Div. UP layout.
 
#19 ·
Pardon me for saying this, but yuck. It’s the circle helix, in a closet that is huge red flag. Bad location for access, and enclosed are always bad too.
But you’ve already got a better location in that plan. You see that peninsula over toward the right? Put an oval shape helix under that area, open on the sides with a central backdrop. Easy to see, access, watch, and clean, from three sides no less.
That’s how mine will be.
Don’t thank me, thank Roy Smith and his Evanston Div. UP layout.
So bright side for the helix, and less so for me wanting two levels, is that unless I lower the main level, the second level would be too high for me to see. And I can't lower the main level because I need to be able to fit my desk under it.

So it will be some kind of shelf layout around the room that maybe doesn't have quite as extreme an elevation change as 10 inches. But should hopefully not require a helix. But I'm about at my whits end coming up with a layout I like and actually want to build.
 
#21 ·
With the above layout and helix, even though it would achieve the long runs, it is visually boring and uninteresting to run. I'm just going to play with drawing features I would like to have to operate trains around and find a way to connect them. Have a wye and then have say a coal mine but it has to be serviced from the opposite track so it needs a set of cross overs and a siding. But also have a reasonable distance to run trains.
 
#22 ·
Did you move your desk in there yet?
I think I spent a year just moving boxes around in my layout space, trying to figure out a “foot print” that I liked. (Living with different arrangements for a couple months each time). A full size mock up using whatever you can is a real hands on in your face kind of thing paper or 3D plans just can’t give you. It’s free. Can provide eureka moments, etc. You may find, as I did, flipping original layout and aisle spaces works better for you? A lot easier to see what the Mrs or others think walking the mock up too.
Especially at wits end.
 
#23 ·
Your overall size constraints are very similar to what I had to start with. I played around with track designs for months. Here is a 3-d view of one iteration that I was really excited about. It had miles ands miles of track. At the time, I was trying to put together the longest single run I could make. Rather than a helix, I opted for the tracks to circle a mountain then exit from the peak over a river to another high peak. Starts out as a double track, then splits into single as one bridge exits half way up.
Rectangle Sleeve Slope Grass Terrestrial plant


I ended up with something completely different. But at the time, I thought I HAD to have this setup. It was an L shape, with the empty area being where you would operate it from.

I am much more of a "watch trains run" than I am a "switcher." But I do like to give the trains a good variety of paths to keep things interesting. While I'm not really into prodding off and picking up, I do like to see my trains change direction through a turnout, or series of turnouts.

I like long runs, tunnels and bridges. So I decided to model along a river in the Ohio Valley so I could have all 3. But it took me about 5 months to land on a layout I finally wanted to build. If I could start over, I would add more spurs and yards, and cut back on some of the rural scenery.
 
#24 ·
I was going to try to get home early from work today and empty the room and put my desk and racing sim in there, but a transmission kept me occupied most of the day. So I didn't get home until a little while ago. I was planning to just put track out on the floor and play with it and see what I could come up with and having the two big things that I'd need to work around in there. But I may also just try to model a few features I like and then see how I can link them. The guest room has kind of become a storage space for random things since my parents last visited.
 
#25 ·
When planning you industries, don't forget to give someplace for the good to come from or go to and a route to get there. i.e. coal mine: Where does the coal go? To tipples along the mainline (steam era)? To a distributor in the city? To a location off layout (how do they get there and return, where are they stored full and empty when off layout)? To a powerplant, needs at least a couple-3 sidings, one for unloading, one for full waiting to be emptied, one for empties waiting to be returned to mine? Powerplants use a lot of coal so sidings need to be long enough to handle a number of cars, needs a run around track for switcher moving the cars around, an unloading facility. Even a small powerplant needs water so can be a major industry. rail served companies are not one way.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Advice I had been given on the layout I was working on when living in Louisiana. Coal mine will feed a powerplant. Haven't decided if on layout or off. I'd like to do on layout.

I may also be using a different spare bedroom than the one I was planning for. My wife suggested I use the bedroom she's using as an office. It's not quite as long (about 4 inches shorter) and about a foot shallower, but the shape of it means I'm not having to contend with the inward swinging door. The closet is also a 5x5 square, could be a good spot for off layout staging and my desk underneath it.

And despite the size and shape difference, the run is not actually all that different. About 100 inches of track less, which works out to about 4 feet lost on both main lines. But I don't lose space from one side of the room to the other to go around the door.

Rectangle Slope Line Parallel Font


Edit: I also ordered another loco (AC6000) and another 8 car coal porter set, along with some more container cars and box cars. So I'll have 16 of the Kato coal cars (and 4-8 others from my dad that I'll repaint/weather) and 15 container gondolas. I should have enough locos for 3 two train consists running/switching around each other and one or two single locos for shorter local runs or switch of cars at the powerplant if I get that on layout.
 
#28 ·
A cool idea I’ve seen in mags and in person is having a coal mine on one side of a backdrop or hill, and a power plant directly opposite, with 2 tracks hidden but straight through. This way your track with loaded cars outbound from the mine is the same track as the inbound for the power plant, just at the opposite end. Same for empties the other direction. No more pulling empty cars out of the mine.
 
#29 ·
So I've spent some time over the course of this afternoon/evening working on a layout for this room. Yard is long enough for 16-18 cars with locomotives, depending on cars. On the north wall (left side) is the coal mine and it's siding, long enough for 8-10 cars per side.

On the south bend is where the power plant will be, near a river, hence the 3 bridges.

I wanted to include a wye because I think they are really cool and that is the most compact one I could come up with without actually using wye switches (I only have one currently.

Within the peninsula is going to be the intermodal yard. Along the north and east walls on the inside I'll have some other industries/town (maybe) serviced by box cars though with the intermodal yard nearby, it might not make sense. The lumber mill may be somewhere in this area as well

And I'm toying with the idea of two staging sidings/interchange into the closet. My desk may end up in there instead and I can probably put the racing sim under the peninsula. I'll either need a really long HDMI cable or have to move my computer when I do the sim racing. I'm glad wireless peripherals are a thing.

But for the most part I'm happy with this layout so far. I'm sure adjustments will come with actually building and accommodating structures. No section will be too deep to reach the back and still maintain 36 inch aisle space.

Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Pattern


So what do we think?
 
#30 · (Edited)
I love the use of a triangular junction like that! Very clever layout!

There are a couple things I would suggest. First, I would try to have at least one mainline that doesn't have to curve to continue straight, if that makes sense. I do like meandering curves, but some of the curves in there feel forced.

Second, I would change the yard on the north. After it branches off the main line to the left, have a series of right-hand turnouts. Their diverging tracks will turn back parallel to the main line in a ladder-like manner, and look really sharp, without the need to bend any curves.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I love the use of a triangular junction like that! Very clever layout!
Thanks! I've wanted to include a wye on a layout because there was one that UP had at the south end of the Shreveport Hollywood yard and there was a little neighborhood in the middle of it.

Map Land lot Urban design Thoroughfare Residential area


I'm trying to keep the peninsula on the right side since the room is deepest there, but I might have to flip the positions of the power plant and the coal mine. Power plant supplying the town from almost across the layout just doesn't sit right with me.

I don't quite follow what you mean about the curves.

But I do understand what you're saying about the coal mine yard on the left (north) wall. I'll have to flip the direction it faces, because I have more left diverging turn outs. But I agree, and the radius of those curves on the siding is the same as the turnouts. Added benefit is the entrance to the coal mine is further from the yard.
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Pattern


Something like that instead.
 
#33 ·
I think I follow. The curve out of the north end of the yard towards the coal mine. I did that to keep the main line run long (as well as the yard) but to make for interesting operations. The coal mine that sevices the powerplant are now on opposite main lines. I could get rid of the bump, but I think operationally it would make the servicing of the powerplant from the coal mine a little too simple with them both on the inner main line.
 
#34 ·
Which track is the power plant track? One of the three? Or the one kind of off by itself there?
If the latter config; I’m wondering out loud (on a keyboard?) if that might be better reversed with power plant siding following the wall, and mainlines with less… Rephrase: Would it maybe be better to have three tracks where that lonely one is, and one siding near the wall or no?
 
#35 ·
Which track is the power plant track? One of the three? Or the one kind of off by itself there?
If the latter config; I’m wondering out loud (on a keyboard?) if that might be better reversed with power plant siding following the wall, and mainlines with less… Rephrase: Would it maybe be better to have three tracks where that lonely one is, and one siding near the wall or no?
The run that cuts the 45 degree corner is power plant. I think the siding that follows the main might not be necessary other than the change from one main to the other with trains in either direction.

The 3 stick yard top center is going to be intermodal.

I hope this makes sense, if I'm understanding you correctly.
 
#36 · (Edited)
So I think I have my finalized starting point for the layout. I realized I could put text in to make it clearer what is where. I decided to flip the side the peninsula shape goes, so the town being supplied by the power plant is closer. Made some slight modifications to make better use of track already on hand.
Rectangle Slope Font Parallel Pattern
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top