[Kieta]

Hello,

So first layout like this and I have Peco right/left turnouts back to back with an inner circle. I've started laying the inner circle but when I throw the switch, power to the inner circle dies. I thought since I didn't have a reversing loop I wouldn't have to worry about wiring for polarity. Is this what is happening? How do I fix it? Thank you.

 

[Dennis461]

Hello,

So first layout like this and I have Peco right/left turnouts back to back with an inner circle. I've started laying the inner circle but when I throw the switch, power to the inner circle dies. ....

What switch? Do you mean turnout? Which way are you throwing the 'switch'?

Where are the power feed to the layout/track.

 

[MichaelE]

Sounds like you bought Electrofrog turnouts which are power-routing.

You also appear to have a kink in the diverging leg of the turnout on the right side.

 

[Tom_C]

That's what I thought too, but they are insulfrog.

 

[Kieta]

What switch? Do you mean turnout? Which way are you throwing the 'switch'?

Where are the power feed to the layout/track.

Yes, the left turnout, which is on the right in the picture. Power (NCE powercab)is feed from to the main line to the left of the turnouts out of picture. Can this be happening because I haven't finishing laying track and closed the circle?

 

[Kieta]

Sounds like you bought Electrofrog turnouts which are power-routing.

You also appear to have a kink in the diverging leg of the turnout on the right side.

Insulfrog Peco#6, kink? The solder? This was my first attempt to get back into soldering. The rest of the joiners look much better. But this is where I started laying track.

 

[Tom_C]

I think he means this:

Break out your multi-meter (if you don't have one, get one) and check the voltage on the track before and after the turnout. The turnout may have a setting to route power (check the paperwork) and it's not configured right. It's also fine to wire a feeder into the inner circle, too. In fact, you should not trust the turnout to route the power ***

*** this only applies to this layout and situation; other layouts may need additional circuitry to connect power after turnouts.

 

[Kieta]

I do have one. I've never opened it..... I'm not the best when it comes to electrical but I've seen post on how to read the voltage so should be able to figure it out.

The back of the Turnout packaging has instructions for wiring but I'll read it again to see if they have something that may help my situation.

 

[Kieta]

Guess I found my answer.....The PECO Insulfrog is a power routing turnout. The term Power Routing indicates that only the route selected by the switch rails has power. The other rails are dead.

 

[Tom_C]

Run feeders to your inside track if you want it to be powered.

And, if a man is soldering stuff, he should also know how to use a meter.

 

[DonR]

Kieta

You have discovered the facts: Peco Insulfrogs
ARE power routing. You should have track
to bus drops for both frog rails on each turnout.
That will keep the power on regardless of point
position.

Don

 

[Kieta]

Run feeders to your inside track if you want it to be powered.

And, if a man is soldering stuff, he should also know how to use a meter. <img src="http://www.modeltrainforum.com/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />

Does this mean I'll have to get a power booster or can I run a separate line or split line from the NCE? Or just a feeder line from the main line over? And is 18gauge solid good for that? Sorry all kind of new to me.

I also read I need insulated joiners at the point rails for these insulfrog so looks like I'll have to redo at least the middle.

 

[Dennis461]

Run feeders to your inside track if you want it to be powered.

And, if a man is soldering stuff, he should also know how to use a meter.

or to the joint between the two turnouts if you want them to power route for you

 

[Tom_C]

Does this mean I'll have to get a power booster or can I run a separate line or split line from the NCE? Or just a feeder line from the main line over? And is 18gauge solid good for that? Sorry all kind of new to me.

I also read I need insulated joiners at the point rails for these insulfrog so looks like I'll have to redo at least the middle.

You shouldn't need a booster, and you don't need insulating joiners either with insulfrogs. 18 gauge should be fine unless you have a really big layout.

 

[CTValleyRR]

Does this mean I'll have to get a power booster or can I run a separate line or split line from the NCE? Or just a feeder line from the main line over? And is 18gauge solid good for that? Sorry all kind of new to me.

I also read I need insulated joiners at the point rails for these insulfrog so looks like I'll have to redo at least the middle.

You don't necessarily have to redo anything. What we're talking about is having more than one set of wires feeding power to your track. That way all the track has power, even with power-routing turnouts.

If your layout is going to be fairly small, you could just run a second set of wires back to the NCE track terminals. A better fix, though, is to use a bus wire (two, actually, one for each rail) which runs under the layout. Connect small wires from this to your track every 8-ish feet. For a smaller layout, 18 AWG will be fine, for a bigger one, you might want to step up to AWG16. Feeders from this to the track can be as small as AWG22.

 

[traction fan]

No and no.

Does this mean I'll have to get a power booster or can I run a separate line or split line from the NCE? Or just a feeder line from the main line over? And is 18gauge solid good for that? Sorry all kind of new to me.

I also read I need insulated joiners at the point rails for these insulfrog so looks like I'll have to redo at least the middle.

Kieta;

No, you don't need a booster. No, you don't need insulated rail joiners for the "frog rails" (the two short rails exiting the frog) and certainly not for the actual "point rails" which are the ones that move to send the train onto one route or the other. If you add a pair of feeder wires to the track between the two turnouts, and do nothing else, then the current routing turnouts will supply power to the inner loop when the point rails are set for the inner loop. If you want power all the time on that inner loop, then do as Don and the other guys have suggested and add power feed wires to the inner loop track itself.

If you want to learn more about turnouts, including such matters as "current routing", "DCC friendly", "Isolated frog" and much more, the attached file explains a lot.

Good luck, and Have fun!

Traction Fan :smilie_daumenpos:

View attachment All AboutTurnouts rev 5.pdf

 

[mesenteria]

Peco turnouts are among the very best commercially made turnouts (I make many of my own, especially for customwork, and I hope you eventually get the gumption to try it yourself. It's not rocket science...).

However, and despite their best design and construction, those little copper wipers and jumpers are NOT fully reliable, definitely not for long. So, you should power both sides of them before you have a fit discovering where things have gone wrong. Solder feeders to the track lengths on either side of those turnouts.

This is a link on youtube to a decent video explaining how to use a multimeter. Remember that, if you're using DCC, you must switch the device to measure AC, not DC, when measuring voltage.

 

[Kieta]

Peco turnouts are among the very best commercially made turnouts (I make many of my own, especially for customwork, and I hope you eventually get the gumption to try it yourself. It's not rocket science...).

However, and despite their best design and construction, those little copper wipers and jumpers are NOT fully reliable, definitely not for long. So, you should power both sides of them before you have a fit discovering where things have gone wrong. Solder feeders to the track lengths on either side of those turnouts.

This is a link on youtube to a decent video explaining how to use a multimeter. Remember that, if you're using DCC, you must switch the device to measure AC, not DC, when measuring voltage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUK6RPdIrA

That was very helpful, thank you. Sorry for the late reply. Once I found the dead spot (using the multimeter). I wanted to finish replacing and gluing down the outer track. Still in the process of rewiring and but the suggestion to just give power to the other loop worked. Learned a lot. Thanks again.

Pic of layout attached. Not big. I just got a used ping pong table and laid down the Eco Cork Form from Home Depot and foam road bed. Something to do over the next few years while I decide on where I will live after that so it'll get torn down then. But should provide fun in the meantime.

 

[kilowatt62]

Greetings Kieta.

Please tell more more about eco cork product you used.

Sincerely
Scott

 

[Kieta]

Greetings Kieta.

Please tell more more about eco cork product you used.

Sincerely
Scott

Hey,

The eco cork turned out to work very well on the ping pong table as a foundation. Using with the foam road bed has provided nice stable and pretty quiet run from the trains. I'm more on the side of trains make noise so I don't mind mine making noise and I think I have that covered with my re-acquaintance with soldering since high school. :laugh:.

Anyways, one thing I did learn from laying the eco cork was after I laid the first section and it dried nicely and evenly, I got greedy and laid two sections the next time. Mistake on my part as it expanded during drying and created bubbles, even though I had things to hold it down in place during drying. Fortunately I was able to cut a slit in the bubbles and insert some glue and fixed most of those. (One just re-appeared yesterday when I laid foam road bed on it and held it down to dry). After that I went back to laying a section at a time and providing a space for expansion in between. Hope that helps.

As an update to my layout I ran the bus wire and feeders to provide power to the insulfrog turnouts which worked as most suggested here. I then ran into a problem with my inner loop coming back into the main loop during testing and had to move the turnouts from being back to back and put a section of track in between and extended the inner circle. Turned old inner circle into just other yard pull off I think, still working it and laying road bed.

This has definitely been a learning process as I've only been in the hobby little over a year and used E-Z track on my first layout and "thought" I learned a enough to minimal mistakes. WRONG lol. But I've so enjoyed the trial and error testing after making changes and running trains to make sure everything works before it becomes permanent. The picture is where I am currently on the layout. Thanks again to everyone who commented.