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Lionel 1688 ~ Two Types ?

29003 Views 27 Replies 6 Participants Last post by  SteveC, 
tjcruiser
Hi guys,

A few of you on the forum have enjoyed the old streamliner Lionel locos. I have a nice 1668E (a 2-6-2 config), and have been peeking on ebay at the somewhat similar 1688's and 1688E's (both simpler 2-4-2 configs with simpler drive rods).

The 1688E has a conventional reversing e-unit.

I'm not sure if the 1688 (rather than the 1688E) has an e-unit or not. It does have a toggle on the top of the loco, but is this simply a switch to manually change direction???

I've been confused that some 1688's appear to have black plastic engines, and others have traditional engines with "conventional" electrical pickups. I wondered why, and assumed (naively) that the ones with the plastic were simply engines that were replaced by an owner somewhere along the line.

However ...

I've just noticed that the 1688's with plastic engines have the slot for the reverse switch (or e-unit?) well aft on the shell, and the 1688's with the traditional engines have the slot for the switch about mid-length on the shell. I.e., they do NOT share the same exact shell casting. Accordingly, they must have been made each differently, each with their own type of engine.

I'm raising this point here for a couple of reasons ...

1. To give a heads-up for anyone looking for parts to repair / service a 1688 down the road ... there are "two types" of 1688's, as far as I can see.

2. To ask any/all of you if you can elaborate on this and/or clarify my findings.

3. Can anyone tell me which of the "two types" of 1688's came first? Why did Lionel change how they were made?

The pics below show the two types of 1688's.

Also, as far as I can see, ALL of the 1688E's (the one that came with e-units for sure) have the slot mid-length on the shell, and all have conventional (non-plastic) motors.

Note, importantly, that the 1668E (which looks very similar to the 1688 family at first glance) is a 2-6-2 config, has more elagant drive rods and valve rods, and has its e-unit slot well forward on the shell.

I'd welcome any clarifying thoughts.

TJ

1688 TYPE #1 -- SWITCH SLOT MID-LENGTH
NOTE CONVENTIONAL MOTOR (though the contact shoes are missing on this one)


1688 TYPE #2 -- SWITCH SLOT WELL AFT
NOTE PLASTIC MOTOR
(THE REAR TRUCK IS MISSING FROM THIS LOCO ... IT SHOULD BE A 2-4-2 CONFIG.)



FOR COMPARISON, HERE'S THE 1688E
WITH E-UNIT, SLOT MID-LENGTH, CONVENTIONAL MOTOR


FOR COMPARISON, ONLY, HERE'S THE 2-6-2 1668E
NOTE E-UNIT WELL FORWARD ON SHELL.

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tjcruiser
Big Ed,

Thanks for the above LINK reference. I should have included that here. I did want to start a new thread, however, because there was some loco # misidentification going on in that older thread (1689 vs. 1688, etc.). With all of these similar numbers (1668, 1688), I wanted to start here fresh and clean ... mostly for my own understanding and (hopefully!) avoiding confusion. :confused:

That said, I had completely forgotten that you yourself have several of these "Loewy" type locos and shells. (I had remembered T-Man's chainsawed monster, and his new one.)

With your locos and knowledge in hand, can you elaborate on any details / questions above???

Is that a Lionel loco on the left in your photo??? I don't recognize it from that angle. It's not a Hiawatha, is it? Any side-view pics? I think you're intentionally trying to stump me with a "pop quiz" !!! :rolleyes:

Thanks!!!

TJ
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tjcruiser
Big Ed,

289E ... ohhh ... I've never seen one before ... quite nice looking ... that's a "Commodore Vanderbilt" style, right? My Lionel catalog book (Doyle) has descriptions of the 289, but had no photographs. I just did a quick 'net pic search, and it similar to the 1689. Very nice.

Re: your computer ... Have you tried "Delete Browsing History" (clearing cookies, etc.) on your computer? In desparation, I've used the Windows "Restore" option with some success to get back to pre-disaster status.

What operating system, browser, etc. are you using?

Good call about your niece's photos ... she's cute, but I'd be cautious about posting pictures of my kids out there in "internet land" ... you never know what dark forces are lurking.

TJ
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tjcruiser
Guys,

Re: old prewar motors and locos ...

Do the non-E named locos (like a 1688 vs. a 1688E) always have an e-unit if there's a toggle poking through the top of the shell, or in some cases is this simply just a manual fwd/reverse switch that someone would have to change position themselves?

Just curous,

TJ
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tjcruiser
T-Man said:
Have you seen a torp design with a manual?
Click to expand...
No, I (naively) haven't. I haven't done the touchy/feely things on that many old locos at all. Most of what I'm trying to learn is via reading, only ... and in that, many of the catalog books are rather vague in their descriptions in this regard. The "with E" or "without E" designation is quite confusing. In the catalogs, the authors make a point of saying that some locos came with "3 position e-units" and the like, but omit any reference to that effect for other locos. And so, I was wondering -- just that, wondering -- if any of these old locos had a manual toggle on the top of the shell.

Doyle confirms your comment ... 1688E was 1936-38. 1688 was 1938-40. So the E came first, as you say. Interesting. I guess the non-E's all have e-units, and maybe (???) the plastic motor 1688 was 1940, as an early lead-in to the post-war Scout motors???

I wonder if Lionel's technicians way back in 1940 would have guessed that we'd be so meticulously questioning what they did and why they did it 70 years into the future?!?

Thanks!

TJ
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tjcruiser
Reck,

Interesting observation. I'll echo my comments above ... do you think these tech guys would have ever guessed we'd be exploring / questioning their work 70 years down the road?!?

Can you imagine if someone will be diliginently questioning YOUR or MY work 70 years downt he road?!? I'd better get off this train forum, and back to my boat performance calcs!

TJ
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tjcruiser
Reck,

Could be all of that. I strongly suspect the early hints of WWII impact any industrial / manufacturing oriented companies. Lionel switched fully over to war production in 1942, but perhaps they were experimenting with newer manufacturing methods in the lead in to that, i.e., more use of plastics. Maybe they hoped that they could do both for the full duration of the war: support the war effort, and produce model trains. As it was, the only trains they produced post-1942 during the war war crude cardboard/wood look-a-likes. As a side note, I saw one of those in mint, unassembled, vigin-box condition sell on ebay recently for a small fortune.

I'll also add that I'm using the term "plastic" somewhat generically. I know that many mfrs back then were using Bakelite (a powder that could be molded and hardened with heat), but I don't know much more about the various specific types/uses of "plastics". In part, that's why the record of a plastic motor on these pre-war 1688 locos surprised me.

TJ
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tjcruiser
Reckers said:
I'm just grateful the technology of the time relied upon components that were so durable: when I work on one, it amazes me how well they still work and how little wear they show, even after 60 to 70 years. Perhaps they quietly built for posterity.
Click to expand...
Well said! As I've begun to delve into the mechanics of some old Lionel locos (or Marx or AF for those who tackle that), it's impressive how durable the "old school" components actually are ... metal castings, bronze bearings, copper windings, etc. The technology is pretty simple by today's standards (e-units vs. diodes, for examples), but it's such that tinkerers like me who "look under the hood" can understand the logic of the mechanics, and service and repair accordingly.

On the flip side, when one of my kids drops an R/C race car, and a circuit board pops loose from the case, I just stare at it with a very puzzled look on my face. :confused: "Dad, what does that little thing do?" ... Uhhh ... "Well, son ... Did I ever tell you how I used to make scooters out of wood and old roller skates?" :rolleyes:

TJ
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tjcruiser
Hi guys,

Back to Lionel 1688 mysteries ...

I happened to stumble on this current ebay listing ... a gent selling a Lionel 1688 loco (and some cars) that he says he received for his 5th birthday in 1967. 1688's were prewar, as were the latch couplers that are shown on his set. So maybe his gift was a USED set? Anyway, here's what really caught my eye ...

The loco and tender are BURGUNDY in color, and appear (???) to be original paint. Also, the loco cab has "900" number tags, and something written in script below it.

Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering if this was a Lionel special-production and/or a special corporate promotional thing?

Have any of you ever seen a 1688 like this before?

Thanks,

TJ

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tjcruiser
Ed ... You made my heart stop there for a second. Dohh! Almost had me going ... hook, line, and SINKER! :thumbsup:

TJ
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tjcruiser
tjcruiser said:
Hi guys,

Back to Lionel 1688 mysteries ...

I happened to stumble on this current ebay listing ... a gent selling a Lionel 1688 loco (and some cars) that he says he received for his 5th birthday in 1967. 1688's were prewar, as were the latch couplers that are shown on his set. So maybe his gift was a USED set? Anyway, here's what really caught my eye ...

The loco and tender are BURGUNDY in color, and appear (???) to be original paint. Also, the loco cab has "900" number tags, and something written in script below it.

Just out of curiosity, I'm wondering if this was a Lionel special-production and/or a special corporate promotional thing?

Have any of you ever seen a 1688 like this before?

Thanks,

TJ
Click to expand...

Gents,

A while back I had asked if anyone had ever seen this unusual maroon-colored 1688 Lionel loco before? We hypothesized that it was likely someone's creative (or crazy) custom-color repaint.

Well ... the mystery continues ...

I happened to see a new eBay listing for a 1936 Lionel catalog. And there, smack dab in the middle of the catalog is THIS:


Wow ... looks like the color WAS original to Lionel !!!

I haven't bought the catalog, so I can't actually read the description. I suspect the Torpedo loco in the catalog is a 238 or 1668, rather than a 1688, but generally of similar styling. Maybe Lionel did all three of those in that maroon color in 1936? Or maybe, they did a very limited number purely as prototype runs???

Does anyone have a full 1936 catalog to see?

Wow, wow, WOW!!! Pretty neat, if you ask me!

TJ

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tjcruiser
Yeah, but someone could have easily applied the letter labels on top of what was original paint. My question is about the paint, not necessarily the lettering.

Thanks for the "good eye" read on the 238 in the catalog page ... I didn't catch that earlier.

Cheers,

TJ
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tjcruiser
Gents,

Back to the "two types" of 1688 locos referenced at the beginning of this thread, and for reference ...

I was poking around on ebay this past weekend lookinig for prewar motors to fit yet another one of my Lionel 1681 loco shells ... one of the so-called "Lionel Jr." motors.

While looking, I realized that the motor installed in 1688's Type I (per my descriptions in Post #1) is the very same motor that Lionel used for the 1681 locos. There are some minor differences ... 1688 has 12-spoked wheels, whereas the 1681 has 8-spoked wheels; 1688 has light mounted in the shell itself, rather than on the motor front; 1688 has an extra bracket at the back of the motor used to attach it to the 1688 shell. However, that said, the two motors (1681 and 1688 Type I) are otherwise identical, and I'm sure could be easily interchanged between the two loco types. Good to know, if anyone has a 1681 or 1688 Type I shell while hunting for a motor.

That's NOT the case for the motor of 1688 Type II ... a different beast with its e-unit lever (and shell slot) located much further aft.

Cheers,

TJ
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tjcruiser
Hi Steve,

With all due respect, I'll have to correct you. 1668 shells (with their 2-6-2 wheel config) have their e-unit slot forward on the boiler shell, not aft. I know this firsthand, and actually have a 1668 on my project bench now.

The 1688 (2-4-2) had the two (major) different shell types, due to the swap-over of the motor type in the mid-1930's. First had slot mid-length, second had slot further aft.

See the 1668 thread I'm posting later today, if you're interested.

Cheers,

TJ
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