[snyderwc]

Broken armature on Lionel 252...did any other pre-war model use a similar motor for replacement other than another 252 (replacing armature is a challenge due to pressed-on gear on it's shaft)

 

[T-Man]

Search Olsentoy and download the file to get all the prewar info. MIllstone Mike posted it.
By comparison the 254 may work but not having one to check is doubtful. The 253 is even more different.
Could be time to search for a small gear puller.

 

[snyderwc57]

Thanks T-Man for the info....hoping to find a workable solution that won't blow my modest newbie train budget...train was my father-in-laws from the late 1920's and would love to get it running again

 

[Millstonemike]

I've attached the 252 and 254 Lionel Service Manuals and the 254 E-Type Motor Manual. That manual lists more than just the 254 motor: motors and associated loco.'s. On page 4 it lists the motors as 252 and 254 motors complete. In the 2 Loco manuals, you can see the motors share some parts, armatures, et. al.

Posting some hi-res pics of both motor sides with a ruler along it's long side may help. I could match that up against a my 248 super motor or my 259E motor (both double reduction gearing). Others may have more motors to compare.

Or just send it out for repair. I think Henning's does that work. GRJ might know.

FYI: To get a copy of the Olsen's Lionel repair manuals for use on your own PC, go to This MTF LInk.

 

[snyderwc57]

Thanks Mike! Appreciate the links and info....I think replacing the armature would probably be the fix but getting the small gear off the drive end of the shaft has proven to be tough task....may just see if I can find another 252 that I can use parts from to try to get it running. Only my 2nd day on the forum and really appreciate the responses and assistance! It's only been few months into my "training" journey and the learning curve has been interesting and challenging.

 

[Millstonemike]

I searched the net and copied a couple of pics purported to be of the 252's motor. You can never be sure of the ID's but a few pics had the motor along side the 252 shell. It seems very similar and has the same frame as my 248 motor. See the pic.

And both the 248 and 252 loco.'s were produced from 1926 to 1932.

 

[snyderwc57]

Thanks for the pics, Mike. It appears that my 252 has armature gear and and shaft configuration than those in the pics (see my pics). Wonder if this was a later repair result or if the original assembly was different from year to year...either way it seems like I will need another 252 for parts unless I can find a compatible armature and gear

 

[snyderwc57]

last reply should read, " It appears that my 252 has armature gear and different shaft configuration than those in the pics (see my pics)"

 

[T-Man]

You are showing a camel back motor. I believe it was in the 151

 

[Millstonemike]

T-Man's right, a camel back. Not the motor listed in the Lionel manuel. For one, the wheels are different; spoked versus disk. There is a possibility the motor was used on early version of the 252. But, there's no evidence to support that. Records are sparse on this issue.

So I ask ... How well does it fit in the chassis? All original holes line up for screws to mount the motor? Or have there been any modifications? That might tell us if the motor was original or "retrofitted" into the loco.

My "Renovated" 248 with a similar double reduction motor shown pic posted

.

 

[snyderwc57]

OK, the plot thickens....did not see any signs of retrofitting the motor into the chassis, holes line up perfectly (see pics)...motor is definitely not the same as the pics Mike shared...I have seen several 252's advertised on Ebay that show spoked wheels but most have the solid ones...only motor pics I've seen on Ebay 252's are not humpback style

 

[snyderwc57]

More info ....this AM found another 252 for sale on Ebay that has same humpback motor and spoked wheels as mine: ebay.com/itm/165985223933?hash=item26a57d84fd:g:f-sAAOSwWYRkE2QV&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA8BNl%2BAemswX6v%2F5%2BYHiPMvCfMvipmzBphppVW8 ...so perhaps Lionel used more than one type of motor and wheels on some of the 252's

 

[Millstonemike]

Dr. Watson ... both your 252 and my 248 were produced during the same timeline. And I know the early 248's produced before 1928 had the single reduction humpback style motor. On the 248 Loco, Lionel switched to the "Super Motor" in 1928. Lionel could very well have switched to the super motor on the later 252 models as well. If true, that dates your 252 Loco to 1927 or before.

When I was procuring my 248, I specifically looked for the super motor. It's double reduction gearing enable more pulling power and slower, realistic speeds (it'll still run off the track at full voltage without any cars). See The YouTube Video of my 248 pulling 7 cars at speed on a 1033 transformer at full throttle (16 V).

If your not a stickler for original parts. I'd look for the Super motor. If you take a precise measurement between the two threaded mounting holes on the motor I can compare that measurement to the mounting holes on my spare 248 motor in my pic above.

I would part with my spare motor except I'm reluctant to do that with someone new to the hobby. The motor needs some work. For one, it needs a new roller plate assembly. I have that reproduction part but it's not installed. Second, it's original wheels suffered from zinc pest. The motor came to me with new reproduction wheels. But the prior owner goofed when he pressed them on. I believe he bent an axle as one set of wheels "wobble" on the track and that binds the gears. Reproduction axles are available. But since I had a another super motor, the one pictured above is in my box of spare parts.

 

[T-Man]

On reference to Doyle Prewar. Peacock Green was the first year in 1926.
Olive green from 27ish to 29. After what Mike said it makes sense an earlier version is a humpback motor.
My Olive green 252 has the super motor. In the 30's they went crazy with yellow orange bodies and e units.

 

[snyderwc57]

Wow, more info to process....my 252 was given to my father in law by his father when he was a kid..he was born in 1921 but don't know how old he was when he got it but 1926 could be possible....mounting holes for motor are 3 1/2" apart (see pic). Hoping of course to find the easiest and most cost efficient solution to replace this motor if possible...not afraid to do some repair work if needed but I don't as yet have a lot of specialty tools (if any are needed) to make the repair. Maybe the best solution is to not rush into anything until I have a better idea of all my options. Thanks again everyone for the info, every bit of info moves the process forward.

 

[Millstonemike]

... Maybe the best solution is to not rush into anything until I have a better idea of all my options. ...

My approach as well

Shown below is my spare 248 super motor mounting measurement at 3.5".

On another note, train99.com lists the 248 chassis at 7 1/2". That's consistent with the measurement of my spare 248 chassis, below. Train99 lists the 252 chassis at 8".

 

[snyderwc57]

Thanks for the additional info, Mike. I have couple bids in on 252's on Ebay that I should be able to use to get this thing running if I win one of them at the price I'm willing to pay. Will see how things shake out in next few days for now.

 

[Millstonemike]

Thanks for the additional info, Mike. I have couple bids in on 252's on Ebay that I should be able to use to get this thing running if I win one of them at the price I'm willing to pay. Will see how things shake out in next few days for now.

What ever you bid on, look at the wheels. There many instances of zinc pest (wheel rot) from this era due to an impure allow used to make the wheels. You may have a full set from your current loco, but if you buy one with bad wheels, you'll have to replace them.

 

[snyderwc57]

Understand about the wheels....won a bid on another 252 with 3 cars and picture and description mentions 2 bad wheels on the locomotive...has same spoked wheels as mine and unit supposedly runs with the wheels being the main defect...hoping to be able to piece together a working 252 between the 2 loco's....I will update my saga when I get a look at the 2nd unit

 

[snyderwc57]

UPDATE: Received the 252 I won on Ebay...as described, it bench and track tested ok with the 2 bad wheels it came with (both on the gear side). I, as gently as possible, replaced the bad wheels, everything spins freely and I cleaned up the axles and armature....of course, now it won't run. I have good power from the pick up and to the light (light works) and the direction change lever assembly. I get a slight hum but that's it from the motor. Can't believe changing the wheels messed this thing up....any ideas would be appreciated.