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Lionel / Ives Windup Locos & Motors (1501, 1503, 1506, 1508, 1511) -- a photo study

Teledoc (Jerry) and I have recently been exchanging info on early Lionel / Ives windup locos and motors. This has prompted me to start a photo-study comparison thread, so that we can identify the different locos, and see where they share things in common, and where they are evolutionary and different. I am sure Teledoc will chime in with his encyclopedic knowledge, and I encourage him to do so.

As most of you know, Lionel acquired Ives in 1929, and the next several years of "Transition Era" production saw an evolutionary exchange of tooling, parts, mechanics, and the like. In my description here, I'm going to use the term "Lionel" generically, encompassing both Ives and Lionel under the same roof. Teledoc will prudently correct me, as needed, and I'll happily defer to him to slap me on the wrist with a ruler to set my record straight.

First, though, I'll point readers toward three of my prior threads:

This one discusses the small Lionel 1501 and 1503 windup locos ...
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=26844&highlight=1501

This one discusses the Lionel 1506L windup loco (and its electric 1015 and 1035 cousins) ...
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=8279&highlight=windup

This one discusses the Lionel 1508 and 1511 "Vanderbilt" style windup locos ...
http://www.modeltrainforum.com/showthread.php?t=11839&highlight=windup

Now, a brief description of locos ...



1501 / 1503 Series -- Very small 0-4-0 windup locos. Twin "sandpipes" pressed into the tinplate, below the single dome. Frame extends AFT of the back of the cab. Red boiler, cab, and steamchest; black frame.

1501 -- As above, with NO drive rods on this loco.

1503 -- As above, but this loco DOES include drive rods.

Variations -- Here's where things get tricky. I have seen variations of the 1501 / 1503 both with and without an internal bell. And I have seen variations with an early (Ives carry-over) windup motor with a semi-permanent screw-in key, and later Lionel windup motors with a removable square-peg skate-type key. I have also seen variations with red-painted 8-spoke wheels, and non-painted 8-spoke wheels.

Governor -- all 1501 / 1503 loco motors include the twin-crescent governor mechanism on the left-front wheel

1506 series -- 0-4-0 loco, larger than the 1501/1503 series. This has just one "sandpipe" pressed into the tinplate below the dome. The frame ends EVEN with the back of the cab, and there are 4 round "dots" on the boiler (per side) just forward of the cab. (The 1501/1503 boilers lack these dots on its foreshortened boiler.)

Variations ...

1506 -- All red (boiler, frame, steamchest). Blank boiler front (no hole, no bezel). With drive rods, I believe. Uses a windup motor with the Lionel square-peg removable key. No bell. Nickel trim.

1506 -- (like the one Teledoc just acquired). Black boiler, cab, steamchest. Red frame. Small hole and small bezel on boiler front. With drive rods. Ives-style screw-in key. No bell. Copper trim.

1506L -- With a battery-powered light. Black boiler, cab, steamchest. Red frame. Large hole and large bezel / lamp-holder on the boiler front. With drive rods. Lionel square-peg removable key. With bell. Copper trim.

The 1506-series locos share essentially the same shell as their electric 1015/1035 cousins, except the 1506 frames are cut differently internally to accept the windup motor insert.

Interestingly, I believe the ALL-RED 1506 (which has no battery or light, and no bell) DOES include cutouts for a battery location and a bell location in its frame, even though these were not included in the loco. I believe that the all-red 1506 likely followed later in the series, after the black-red 1506 version.

1508 / 1511 -- The "Vanderbilt" 0-4-0 loco, often referenced as the "Mickey Mouse" loco. All red with Nickel trim.

Variations ...

1508 -- With battery compartment and electric light. NO bezel on the nose, in way of the light socket. With bell. No side rods (I believe). Mated to the 1509T, Mickey Mouse "stoker" tender.

1511 -- With whistle-chugger mounted to front of windup motor. NO battery/light. But with chrome bezel on nose of boiler front. With drive rods (I believe). Mated to the 1516 conventional tender.


Importantly, I will note that the windup motors used on the 1501 & 1503 are significantly smaller than those used on the 1506 series and on the 1508/1511 locos ... smaller in all three dimensions: length, height, and width.

Now, here are some windup locos from my collection ... left-to-right: 1501, 1503, 1506L, 1508 ...

More to come ...

This is an ad taken from Greenberg's Guide to Ives Trains, 1984 edition, for the 1501 windup.

Ives 1501 Ad.jpg

TJ
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Here's a closer look at the windup motors themselves (or parts thereof ... a couple of these are just derelict motor frames). From top to bottom we have:

1501/1503 motor with Ives-style screw-in key

1511 motor (frame) which would have been mated to a whistle-chugger

1506L motor with bell
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Here's a comparison of 1501 and 1503 motors. Though I believe there are likely many mix-match combinations and variations, shown below is a 1501 with bell and Lionel-style square-peg key; and the 1503 with no bell but with Ives-style screw-in key.

(The stainless screw-in key below is original. The brass square-peg key is a reproduction, fancier than what would have been original.)
 

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Here's an all-red 1506 with the blank (plain) boiler front. This one is NOT in my collection ... simply spotted on eBay. Note the frame cutout for the battery and bell (a carry-over from the black/red 1506), even though this all-red 1506 never had the battery/light or bell.
 

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Finally, here are some eBay example pics of a 1511 with whistle/chugger. Note that the boiler nose here does include a chrome bezel, whereas the 1508 (with light socket nose) does not.
 

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Oh, I meant to add this, too. A collection of 1501 parts showing how they would fit together. My apologies to this little orphan. He's in sorry shape, and will get some much-needed t.l.c. from me at some point soon ...
 

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TJ, A very well done description in the first post, But I took the liberty to make few correction, and edited a few item. Your use of Chrome trim was edited to Nickel trim, and I corrected the “Stoker tender” number from 1508 to 1509T, which is the correct number. The follow up posts, with the visuals is great, for people to actually see the variations. I may chime in later!!! Great job, as usual. Prewar Tinplate is fascinating to research, and a few of us, like to delve into the lost history, from the early years of Ives & Lionel.
 

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Here's the 1506 black boiler with red frame loco (NOT the 1506L loco) recently acquired by Teledoc/Jerry. Jerry, perhaps you can take and post some photos of the loco close-up, showing the motor, frame, boiler front, etc.? I'd love to see these in detail, especially your eyes/description of what cutouts exist on the internal loco frame. Please confirm "no bell" on this 1506?
 

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TJ, A very well done description in the first post, But I took the liberty to make few correction, and edited a few item. Your use of Chromr trim was edited to Nickel trim, and I corrected the “Stoker tender” number from 1508 to 1509T, which is the correct number.
Thanks, Jerry ... I was hoping you'd chime in. I added the ebay pics of your 1506 loco and set. Can you please take and post detailed photos of the loco ... showing frame with cutouts, boiler front, etc.? Thanks!

TJ
 

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This is a continuation of the windups, produced under the Ives, Lionel-Ives, then Lionel Lithographs. These windups were actually all produced by Lionel, in both the Bridgeport, CT, and Irvington NJ plants, by Lionel only. As mentioned before, Lionel had bought Ives, after bankruptcy, in Nov. 1929, and all these windups were produced from 1930, up through 1935-36 time frame. The Ives 1501, 1503, and 1506 were made under the Ives lithograph, and cataloged in the Ives 1931-32 years. The Ives label was totally eliminated by Lionel in 1933, which is when Lionel-Ives appeared.

All of the early issued windups, until 1935-36, had governors, to control the speed of the windup, and provided braking. Here is the Patent for the governor, also found in an earlier tjcruiser post.

lionel governor.png


Below are photos of the Ives 1506, which I recently purchased as a Set. The Set was missing the 1512 gondola, but luckily, I had the needed 1512 black frame gondola.

Right side view 1506.
1506-D.jpg

Left side view 1506.
1506-C.jpg

Top view of 1506.
1506-E.jpg

This is front view, small hole with copper bezel. There were different combinations of steamchests used throughout production, of these small windups.
1506-B.jpg

This is rear view of cab, with control lever.
1506-F.jpg

This is bottom view assembled, and NO Bell TJ.
1506-A.jpg


This is view with motor removed, showing curved cut-outs. This body style, with cut-outs was for future models, using electric motors. The Ives 1815 loco used this body, for the electric powered model, with an 1815T, which is the IVES R.R. LINES tender, similar to the 1016T.
1506-G.jpg

This a view of the motor, from rear, and top view.
1506-H.JPG

This is view of the motor, from rear, and bottom view.
1506-I.JPG


This is view of motor from the front, top view.
1506-J.JPG

As TJ mentioned in his post, the Ives locos & motors were smaller, as compared to later issues. Primarily, the springs were different. The Ives 1501/1503/1506 had springs at just under 3/8" (.3670") wide, and the later issues of 1506L, 1508, 1511, 1588 are about 7/16" (.4245) wide. The frame of the Ives locos, measure 5/8" wide, versus the later Lionel frame, at 3/4" wide.



This is a 1588 Torpedo Loco, that used a whistle as the governor, to control the speed, and braking, viewed from the left side.
1588 side.JPG

This is a bottom view of a 1588 loco, showing the similarities to the earlier windup motors.
1588 bottom.JPG

This is a view, with attention to the gearing, attached to the whistle motor, as the governing device.
1588 governor.jpg


The transition period after Lionel took over the Ives line, gets confusing, trying to identify Ives issues, from Lionel-Ives, to Lionel issued windups. Also in the same time span, Lionel created another line of locos, with another identification, but NOT linking it to Lionel, as the “Winner Line”. The Ives labeled windups were offered in 1931-32 ONLY. The Lionel-Ives labels offered in 1932-33 only, when the Lionel-Ives was no longer used after 1933. In 1934, the new identity of Lionel Jr., came about. That identity continued from 1934 until 1937, and then, all issues of locomotives became “Lionel 027”.

This is the Patent, for the whistle, that was used in the 1511 as pictured, & the 1588 windups. It was invented by Charles V. Giaimo, who worked for Lionel.

Lionel whistle patent.jpg
 

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Greenberg's Guide to Ives Trains

The following is excerpted from the Greenberg Guide to Ives Trains. With Lionel acquiring Ives, in 1929, the manufacturing was initially in the Ives plant, in Bridgeport, CT., and Lionel closed that plant, in 1931, and moved every thing to the Irvington, NJ. facility.:::

With the closing of the Bridgeport plant in 1931 and the move to Lionel's Irvington facility, the clockwork series was redesigned by Lionel to both modernize the line, and reduce its production cost. Ives produced stamped steel steam engines, rather than cast-iron boilers. In 1931, Ives offered three new Lionel designed 0-4-0 mechanical locomotives. (although it says Ives, it was really Lionel) They had modern low design. The new 1501 and 1503 models were 6 1/4" long, and the 1503 had side rods and a brake. Both came with the new four-wheel 1502 tender. The deluxe locomotive was the 1506, which was 6 3/4" long, and came with a brake, and the larger 1507 coal tender. The 1506 was also offered electrically powered in 1931 as the 1815. No electric outline clockwork-powered models were produced

The 1501 and 1506 engines were offered by Lionel-Ives line in 1932, but the in-between 1503 was dropped. After closing out Ives' trains in 1932, Lionel offered the 1501 and 1506 as "Lionel-Ives" in the 1933 catalog and then finally as "Lionel Jr." line, in 1934, thus ending the tradition, started by Ives, in 1901.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi Jerry,

MANY thanks for the info above, and for posting detailed pics of your "new" 1506, including detailed shots of the frame and motor disassembled. Much appreciated.

This confirms that this black/red version of the 1506 (no battery/light) DID have a small bezel on the boiler front, and that the frame is THE SAME AS the frame used on the electric-powered 1015 and 1035 locos. (This 1506 frame has a screw-on rear motor mount, and does NOT have the battery-compartment cutout that exists on the RED 1506 loco and the 1506L loco.)
 

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OK, Jerry, what is this little beast??? ...

The guys over at OGRForum.com had this image/post of a little 1506 (or 1815) Ives/Lionel loco ... but with a DIFFERENT BOILER FRONT. It's NOT the same as the blank (no hole) boiler front used on the RED 1506, nor the same as any other 1506, 1015, or 1035 loco.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/lionel-ives-clockwork-loco

Do you think this boiler front is original? If so, what loco is this? Or do you think that this is a non-original replacement boiler front (from some other loco/mfr) that was simply stuck here to replace a long-lost front? Do you recognize that boiler front from something else? Marx, maybe???

TJ
 

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TJ, To answer your question, that loco is James Pekarek’s 1506L, with a different boiler front. I am in communication with James AKA “Windupguy”, via email. He is heavily into Marx windups. He verified it has the battery cut-out, switch, but not sure if I remember him saying it had wiring to a headlight. Otherwise it is a 1506L. You have to read through the whole thread.

I measured the boiler front, which came in at 1.45” diameter. There is a distinct possibility that Ives, Lionel, & Marx boiler fronts are interchangeable, with different designs, i.e.: solid front, small hole w/ bezel, large hole w/bezel. More detective work!!!!
 

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Thank you, Jerry!

And, to complete the dialog on this subject, Jerry and I have confirmed that the black, blank (no holes) boiler front on the 1506L loco shown above is, in fact, a Marx boiler front ... from a Marx 833 loco.

TJ
 

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After re-reading the thread over on OGR, Windupguy bought that without the front, and stated he used the Marx 833, as a quick substitute.
 

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Be careful what you wish for ...

I spotted this all-red 1506 on eBay and couldn't resist. Put in a crazy-high bid (for me) ... thought I'd have plenty of cushion, but ended up winning by just a few pennies. Dohh! Oh, well ... another orphan for the stable. It's all original. In OK shape, though the windup spring doesn't hold its wind. Not sure why ... I'll have to delve into that.

Reiterating: this later-generation all-red windup 1506 is built directly upon the electric-motor 1015/1035 series locos. The frame cutouts are exactly the same at the 1015/1035 with battery holder, though there's no battery/switch/light here in the 1506. The windup motor does have a bell and drive rods. The boiler front is blank ... no hole, no bezel.

On TJ's restoration list ... someday.

TJ
 

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