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Discussion Starter #141 (Edited)
The WW2 gas mask was designed for chemical agents, not viruses. It had multiple filters as I recall. There were paper and charcoal filters in them. We had them the Ohio National Guard back in the 60's. That said, they wouldn't protect against the newer chemical agents that the Russians had developed. It may have been the wearer's best available protection device rather than a joke. This is a serious threat, and the rank and file people are being left with instructions to wear bandannas and handkerchiefs and diapers.

On another note, the people who feel they need to congregate on beaches and in parks and on the street will be the ones to further spread the virus to each other, further taxing the health system, the health workers, and further raise death rate higher and higher. I think there was a line in A Christmas Carol that went something like this, Scrooge is talking, " if they are going to die, let them get busy dying, and reduce the excess population."

Perhaps, the rules and suggestions for safety in life for these times should be revised to Scrooge's idea. Then those who were safe will inherit a less populated.world. Perhaps, this may be the beginning of the end of humanity. Let them eat cake. It'll be easy, because they aren't wearing any masks.
 

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Having sat here through what is it -- weeks of a light lockdown, in which it appears to me that all we've achieved is a flattening of the rate the new cases and deaths locally... I think hindsight being 20-20, a harder lockdown is the only thing that really makes sense. You know prepare for 2 weeks and then say 4 weeks of an absolute lockdown, isolation of the sick, vigorous testing and so on. Then, reverse -- vigorous testing and contact tracing, hopefully with cases in the "single digits". This has worked where its been tried. Nothing else has worked so far. But I suspect I'm in a minority even here on this one. I hate to say it but we spent the bulk of any political good will, even here already. And so that's the key problem with the half-assed approach. What we are likely to go through now to me is a reverse, high case loads and fast growth especially in certain cities and high density areas -- then some efforts to backtrack and tighten up, then loosening, backtrack, etc.. It's going to be a mess and its going to last all summer long and into the fall, and winter -- until we reach herd immunity.

My only shard of hope left is some of the therapeutics appear to really lower the death rate substantially. In that scenario, we are left with a "you get sick but if you feel real bad we do have something that MAY help..." kind of thing going on but everyone gets sick until herd immunity is reached or vaccine appears whichever comes first

And exactly what level of risk people are willing to take on in that scenarios is pretty unclear to me right now.
 

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Discussion Starter #143
I think it is personal thing. How much risk are you willing to take, personally. I really, really believe the current administration has no empathy for the population at large. They seem to be willing to accept any level of catastrophe and death, as long as the bottom line is reinstated to a level to keep their pocketbooks full. After all these are, for the most part, business people, not servants of the people. The bottom line is how they will fare in the end. Isolated from the disease, the catastrophe, the shortages, they are above the frey, and are not at all affected by what happens to the rest of the population.
 

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Well I view it like this. Some think the only thing that makes sense until a vaccine appears or solid cures say is a herd immunity approach. This is what Sweden is doing and I think this appeals to the libertarian mindset here informing the administration. Or you can take an aggressive national approach with strong intervention at the national level. This has worked in several countries so far. But that's not something the administration wants to do for whatever reasons.
 

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...Or you can take an aggressive national approach with strong intervention at the national level...
Look at the protests being held now with just stay at home orders and masks. Any more aggressive than that will result in full blown rioting in the streets.
 

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Ok, so there could be rioting in the streets. we have ways to handle that. and large segments of the population are not going to riot even if they feel like on the inside. but my point is that if we'd started there all these weeks ago and we had some models from two countries that should this would work -- then we would have a pay off now. But we didn't do that -- so backtracking with re-closing measures should cases re-expand in areas lightening up will be ever harder as you are pointing out.

The death rate is pretty high for this thing -- its not the black death true -- but its not the common cold or even the flu, but if enough folks get sick and severely it may well naturally limit activity anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter #147
Sure, it has already started. People are showing up at demonstrations armed, and sporting flak or bullet-proof vests, and seemingly, a just test me attitude. There may be insurrection in the offing. There are some just itching or spoiling for a fight. Who will stop them? Police, National Guard, the U.S. Armed Forces? Will the president declared martial law? Will it get that far? This is serious stuff, for sure.
 

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Staying on the topic of masks.. This virus started in Wuhan China. Apparently it is not a problem over there because they are sending their children back to school wearing MASKS.

Singapore (AFP) - Here are the latest developments from Asia related to the novel coronavirus pandemic:
- Students in Wuhan return to school -
Chinese youngsters in Wuhan, where the coronavirus first emerged, filed back to class, wearing masks and walking in single file past thermal scanners.
Senior school students in 121 institutions were back in front of chalkboards and digital displays for the first time since their city shut down in January.
"School is finally reopening!" posted one user on Weibo, China's Twitter-like short messaging platform.
 

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Actually it's getting interesting on the exact focal point or origin from animal to person. The gist is -- we may never quite know for sure. For example recently there's strong evidence of a December infection in France. Weeks earlier than their official first case. Given that - it may be this thing bubbled around at a low level here and there before mutating just the right way and widely spreading today.

We may never find the so called "patient zero"...

You can find this easily with google and a search -- but here's one link:

 

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Frisco wrote:
"Chinese youngsters in Wuhan, where the coronavirus first emerged, filed back to class, wearing masks and walking in single file past thermal scanners."

Good luck getting kids here to behave docilely like that...
 

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Actually it's getting interesting on the exact focal point or origin from animal to person. The gist is -- we may never quite know for sure. For example recently there's strong evidence of a December infection in France. Weeks earlier than their official first case. Given that - it may be this thing bubbled around at a low level here and there before mutating just the right way and widely spreading today.

We may never find the so called "patient zero"...

You can find this easily with google and a search -- but here's one link:

Studies of coronavirus evolution stir up a controversy for scientists on social media
 

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Frisco wrote:
"Chinese youngsters in Wuhan, where the coronavirus first emerged, filed back to class, wearing masks and walking in single file past thermal scanners."

Good luck getting kids here to behave docilely like that...
I can't that we would send our children back to school even with a mask and no vaccine which may be over a year before one is approved that will work.

The liability will be very high if one child catches the virus after returning to school.

China does not care. They are just making fun of the rest of the world showing they are not afraid of it and they can contain it.
 

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Discussion Starter #155
People are expendable, only the economy must prevail. The profits must be restored so those who have the most can get more of the same. (JK, Chief Son-In-Law)
 

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Well I view it like this. Some think the only thing that makes sense until a vaccine appears or solid cures say is a herd immunity approach. This is what Sweden is doing and I think this appeals to the libertarian mindset here informing the administration. Or you can take an aggressive national approach with strong intervention at the national level. This has worked in several countries so far. But that's not something the administration wants to do for whatever reasons.
Sweden did not do the lockdowns that its neighbors Norway, Finland and Denmark did. Their mortality rate was 22 per 100,000 population which at first glance seems acceptable. However the other three nations mortality rate was between 4 and 7 per 100,000. It raises the question, are you willing to live with a mortality rate 3 to 5 times higher for less restrictions knowing that friends and family may be included in that higher rate?
 

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Discussion Starter #157
I am disconnecting from this thread. I am disconnecting from most everything. I have my thoughts and beliefs, and they won't change. Life, as we knew it sure has changed, and I hope everyone here comes out okay on the backside of this, it there is one. Good luck.
 

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I have ties to sweden (through marriage) and I'm not real happy with them on this one. this is my take on them. firstly they think they are exceptional. there's a certain truth in it but of course not really in many ways. the other one is they are a small country with limited resources. they figured consciously or subconsciously: "We ain't solving this one..." So they cooked up a scheme that sounds very you know smart, but really amounts to sacrificing their vulnerable populations. I mean they probably talked themselves into believing otherwise but that's my take at least. anyway the whole policy appears to emanate from one guy -- their chief epidemiologist and not elected officials. The locals I've talked to are for the most part going along with it. However not all of them, a few have sequestered themselves away. They do have this going for them -- it's a very lightly populated country and much of it is spread out. There's a lot of singles and the locals sometimes describe the place as socially distant anyway. even so as you note -- take their deaths and scale it to our size, and they have a higher level. i dont really think their policy is working but i bet they never admit it and just keep on going unless it shoots off like NYC did. even their published numbers i somewhat doubt. i don't think they are going out of their way to get a full accounting. (my guess)
 

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Bobs, really the whole thing is depressing and I go through fits of it and then come back out of it. I don't blame you a bit. Well the only little ray of light so far is we have remdesivir and another antiviral from Fuji (favipiravir) which appears to make some improvement in the time to recover in a couple of different trial studies. Lots of other trials going on and maybe with a little luck we'll get more people healthy faster soon with more therapeutics.
 
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