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MTH proto 2.0 boards

12K views 53 replies 11 participants last post by  gunrunnerjohn 
#1 ·
The upper and lower boards in my engine are called proto sound boards but one of these or both control forward and reverse. Can the engine run without the "sound" board?
 
#34 ·
Hello,

My name is Mr. Brown
I am new to model trains and I bought one on eBay that does not work. I want to buy a new PS/2 board for my Rail King MTH Southern Pacific Gs-4 Steamer with Proto Sound locomotive. I saw a comment you made in the discussion thread with this link MTH proto 2.0 boards

You uploaded a picture of the board I want to buy and you said it is a 5V version. Could you tell me the model# for the board and where I could buy it? My email is kbrowneng77@gmail Thank you.
 
#7 ·
Get the 5 amp board. A close review of the BlueRail spec.'s shows the amp rating in the name is not the same as the sustained amp rating of the board. The ratings for the 2 amp board is 2 amps peak and 1.5 amps continuous. The ratings for the 5 amp board is 5 amps peak and 3 amps continuous. And I would opt for the 150' range. Not becuase you need the distance, but to insure you don't lose signal for whatever reason.
 
#10 ·
It would seem that "5-Amp" module operates in two modes.

In "Basic" mode the module controls the motor and a couple of functions (lights) via the wireless App.

In "DCC mode" the modules receives commands from the wireless app and conveys them to a connected DCC compliant decoder module. The decoder module can have sound (speaker output) and many functions controlled by the app. But in DCC mode, it's the decoder module that supplies power to the motors. Most DCC decoders are made for HO and a few for G-scale. The trick is to find a DCC decoder that can handle the power requirements of an O-scale MTH engine.

Here's "DCC mode"

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#12 ·
You don't need any DCC equipment or control system. Just to be clear ...

The Bluerail 5-Amp board by itself in "Basic Mode", will run off the wireless app, control the motor and I believe it has one or two more outputs for lights, etc. You won't get sound in that configuration.

You can put the board in "DCC Mode". In that mode, as pictured above, the main output of the "5-Amp" board will send the App signals to a generic, off-the shelf, DCC decoder. The decoder will respond to app commands, drive the motor, control lights etc, and if equipped, will have sound with a built in amplifier for a speaker. As before, you would need to find a DCC decoder (there are many) that can handle the amp ratings for the O-scale MTH loco (fewer, more expensive).

Generic DCC decoders pickup power and DCC signals via the track. That is, the DCC signals are overlaid on top of track power in much the same way MTH provides DCS signalling to its locos.. The BlueRail module picks up track power but gets it control from the wireless app. Hence, the track doesn't have any DCC signalling on it. The BlueRail module provides power to the DCC decoder and overlays the DCC signalling (from the wireless app) on top of the power feed to the decoder. The decoder sees what it's designed for; power and overlaid DCC signals. So any generic decoder can be used with the BlueRail module. In essence, the 5-Amp module becomes the radio receiver, power pickup & control pass-through to generic DCC decoder.

Note: BlueRail says it will work with MTH loco boards 2014 and newer. But I gather yours is older given it's PS2.
 
#14 ·
The Traxx DCC decoders offered for sale on the BlueRail site were $120 to $180 and not much cheaper on other sites. There are cheaper decoder boards going down to $50. But with sound and a high amp rating, they seem to be $100+. At present, the high amp decoders are in a niche market (G-scale). The majority of decoder sales are in the higher volume HO market. But with MTH gone, it may be the only option to keep advanced features after an electronics failure. That may increase the need for these modules - sales volume - at some point in the future ... perhaps causing a price drop as the O-Scale market creates additional economies of scale for the manufactures. But I wouldn't "Hold My Breath" :)

Adding secondary capabilities to a unit usual costs more than buying an all inclusive product to begin with. At present, I would think that a BlueRail/decoder solution would appropriate for an MTH Premier loco in need of new electronics.

I'm thinking of dropping a 5-Amp board into a pre-war loco for the wireless motor control. And if that BlueRail module does support a couple of control outputs, maybe direction and proprietary sound (my own design). But that's a future project. I've just begun restoring some Lionel prewar passenger cars from the "teens". And that will be my focus for now.
 
#16 ·
Perhaps you should start a thread asking same to alert others into that question with more experience with diesel locos.

I'm focusing on Prewar Lionel - only steam. And my investigation into the BlueRail Approach is for that purpose.

One note: In basic mode, you have two additional 3 V outputs on the 5-Amp module that can be controlled via the App. They are designated for front and rear lights. As per the picture, the 5-Amp module supplies a constant 3 V and the two controllable outputs would complete a circuit to ground to activate the LED(s).That may be appropriate for a diesel loco but not essential for steam (or at all - lights always on). I might use one to trigger a small relay that would control a generic sound module (a module that's not necessarily a dedicated model railroad product). I may use the other to control the Lionel E-unit for reverse control of my prewar locos.

I would imagine that there are sound modules that can be controlled via the Lionel "DC power overlay approach". Others would have better info on that.

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#23 ·
Perhaps you should start a thread asking same to alert others into that question with more experience with diesel locos.

I'm focusing on Prewar Lionel - only steam. And my investigation into the BlueRail Approach is for that purpose.

One note: In basic mode, you have two additional 3 V outputs on the 5-Amp module that can be controlled via the App. They are designated for front and rear lights. As per the picture, the 5-Amp module supplies a constant 3 V and the two controllable outputs would complete a circuit to ground to activate the LED(s).That may be appropriate for a diesel loco but not essential for steam (or at all - lights always on). I might use one to trigger a small relay that would control a generic sound module (a module that's not necessarily a dedicated model railroad product). I may use the other to control the Lionel E-unit for reverse control of my prewar locos.

I would imagine that there are sound modules that can be controlled via the Lionel "DC power overlay approach". Others would have better info on that.

View attachment 545817
I'm interested in the BlueRailDCC boards as well. I had a discussion with someone who works with them, and they said the latest Tam Valley firmware helps manage voltage spike issues often associated with older motors - so they are trying to accommodate that market. I was interested to learn that the 5-amp board has 2 additional connection ports (marked D1 and D2) that are triggered by the bell and horn buttons in the app ( F1 and F2). I don't think this is documented, but its good to know there are 2 additional places to trigger things in the larger board. There is a lot of information in the userguide on the site: BlueRailDCC by Tam Valley UserGuide
 
#19 ·
That's the small 2-amp board. The 5-amp board has the same lighting outputs. The BlueRail picture of the 2-amp just showed it better so I posted that pic.

The 5-Amp board is $140; $150 w/ extended range antenna. That board is good for 3 amps continuous draw, 5 amps peak. The 2 amp board supports 1.5 amps continuous, 2 amp peak and costs $95, $105 w/ extended antenna.
 
#18 ·
The BlueRail board requires you to have a DCC board as well in order to add sound. By the time you get it all together, you have a considerable sum of money in electronics.

For diesels, you can buy the complete TMCC command package with sound for a little more than $200. That includes cruise control. Steamers cost a bit more if you want chuffing smoke as you need extra stuff to control the smoke.
 
#22 ·
You know the options look not so hot for dead protosound boards right now. If you have legacy also and a burned out protosound board ... It's seems the best bet is the tmcc package suggested above. If not, the legacy base is a few hundred on top.

Or DCC seems an option but there's the mixed command system operation problem... Which may not have a solution.

But for pure DCC, there's the cost DCC engine board itself (aka sound decoder). Not to mention a DCC control system. It might be worth a quick mention DCC uses bemf to estimate motor rotations unlike the direct detect systems by mth and Lionel.

Anyway in the DCC control system or "base station", many of us in ho-land have built the so called DCC++ open source base station project and use that with the free jmri software package for operation.

Whether DCC++ power is enough for o gauge motors is not known to me. I'm sure finding bigger such boards is realistic but someone has to do it, to modify the DCC++ software to make it work.

In the end DCC++ for o is starting to sound like project in its own right..
 
#28 ·
I know from experience building an app on any platform (iOS or Android) is usually at $10-20K effort. I don't know what their profit margins are, and how many boards you need to sell as a small company for that to make sense, but it is probably harder for a small company to launch on all platforms at once. I know when BlueRail made their first product they partnered with Bachmann on the EZ App, and I imagine the partnership helped subsidize the Android version of the app they put out. Hopefully they can do something similar to upgrade their Android app to support DCC.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Android WIFI Solution

WiFiTrax makes an onboard wireless module ($79 msrp) that accepts commands from the EngineDriver Android App and delivers them to a generic DCC decoder such as a DigiTrax DG583AR 5-Amp decoder ($67 msrp, $54 @ sbs4dcc.com)). Spec.'s for the WifiTrax module indicate 3 amp continuous and 4 amp peak with an input voltage of 12 to 18 V DC. (However, the module's PCB silkscreen lists 8-24 V DC input). Obviously, you need to consider the max voltage for the decoder itself. Adding sound would be the next step. DigiTrax makes separate sound decoders that can be used independently of the DCC Decoder. DigiTrax SFX006 Soundbug ($53 msrp) can be wired in parallel to the output of the WifiTrax DCC interface (low output volume but there are others). I presume that would mean a second address for operating the sound module (like a separate loco or other sound device such as a depot). There are some high power DCC decoders with sound but pricing starts at $150+.

For $186 for the setup (plus tax & shipping if applicable) with a benefit of moving towards an "open architecture" wireless DCC solution. A high current DCC decoder with onboard sound would be ideal. I've seen a few but they're ~$150+ before adding the WiFiTrax module/

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#33 ·
If I understand you question ... You want to update a generic DCC module w/Sound via the WiFiTrax module.

I haven't see any mfg literature that supports that. You can update the WiFiTrax module firmware via a USB interface using this WiFiTrax Interface Module.

The Digitrax PR4 module supports USB to DCC decoder for programming modules. It also allows PCs to connect to the track for PC control Apps of DCC modules.
 
#35 ·
Jumping into his conversation late but given an MTH as a base engine....
A Mike'schief Plus (trademark pending- just kidding) is an option. That is, a baseline MTH engine (frame, motors, trucks) can be retrofitted with certain Lionchief Plus boards, a simple wiring harness made up and LED lighting, and result is a bluetooth or Lionel universal remote driven engine, also possible to use under conventional transformer operation, with sounds, smoke, and even elecrocouplers and yes, possibly done cheaper than some of the proposed solutions.
Lionchief plus boards are between $55- $75 and you can either get one that requires a tachometer (and thus you are best to buy the Lionel motor to get the tach sensor and flywheel combo roughly $32) or get one of the few tackless back EMF boards. Also, MTH PS1 couplers are the same as a Lionel and can be used, but PS2 and PS3 couplers must be changed to a PS1 or Lionel version to be compatible. Also, MTH smoke units can be used, just remove one resistor for a 16 Ohm smoke resistance (MTH used 16 ohm resistors, but just 2 in series or parallel depending on the unit).
Also keep in mind the half off annual Lionel parts sale. If you plan ahead, that makes the conversion even cheaper.

Also- no you cannot use or adapt the MTH flywheel and optical tach. You have to switch to the Lionel parts. You pull off the MTH flywheel, install the Lionel tach board on the motor brush end, and then install the Lionel flywheel (set screwed not pressed on) making it easy. the challenge is more removing the MTH flywheel than anything and just requires he correct puller tool. Again, if that is too hard or won't fit, there is the back EMF variant of the LC+ board but it is in less models and road names.

And then, latest kicker- Lionchief Plus 2.0 includes TMCC operation. Boards are list at $150 and all but 1 (dockside steam) requires a matching tach and flywheel (buying a $32 motor with tach and flywheel is best). Same rules, 16 ohm. smoke requirement, LED lighting, and either PS1 or Lionel electrocouplers.

Again, if done right at the half off sale and planned ahead, you can do a conversion for UNDER $100 for a standard bluetooth plus version, or splurge and get for say under $150 do a complete LC Plus 2.0 with TMCC.
One downside is you have to build your own wiring harness. Lionel does not yet list those parts in most cases. But you can buy ready made JST-ZH and JST-PH connectors with wiring on Amazon in various number of pins pretty reasonably.

Again, the basic requirements to use a LC+ or LC+ 2.0
8 ohm speaker
1-2 can DC motors (note, most Williams are not a great choice, too high gearing and too high amp draw) MTH is perfect.
PS1 or Lionel electrocouplers. Cannot use PS2 or PS3 couplers electrically incompatible.
Possibly install a lionel tach sensor board and matching flywheel on one motor. Or go with specific tackless LC+ board.
16 ohm smoke resistor in fan driven smoke unit (MTH does use 16 ohm resistors- just must remove and use only 1)
LED lighting for all outputs.
DIY wiring harness.

Discussions Lionel Lionchief Plus 2.0 and recent Legacy wiring and...




Keep in mind, this has changed over time. Months ago, I never saw anyone else publish much reverse engineering of Lionchief+. You had to buy an engine to understand the wiring harness and while Lionel had parts breakdowns, you still didn't know everything on what was compatible. Now, 7-9 months later, I know and have done conversions. LC+ 2.0 is still so brand new Lionel only sells the board, but I have figured out what legacy sensor boards work and specific flywheels.

And the kicker is, MTH engines, both Railking and Premier are near perfect candidates. The motors and gearing are so close to Lionel it just is a match made for this conversion. Even specifics like MTH always used 16 ohm smoke resistors just 2 of them that can be reduced to 1. Also, PS1 conversions often have usable electrocouplers making this even more attractive.
 
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