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I am in for the NYC E7 Beauty Queens unless a 3rd Rail set shows before orders have to be in. I was hoping Scott would do a second run but no soap.

Pete
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I am in for the NYC E7 Beauty Queens unless a 3rd Rail set shows before orders have to be in. I was hoping Scott would do a second run but no soap.

Pete
Nothing like fixed pilots and easy to convert to Kadee. Wish Lionel would take the hint and give the option to convert to fix pilots.
 

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I will go the P&D pilot route on the lead unit. Not a huge deal. The downside to Lionel is the high water trucks due to the Liondrives they use now. That will be harder to deal with.

Pete
 

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Probably old news but lionchief+ is very near legacy in terms of features ... According to their table at least...
 

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Probably old news but lionchief+ is very near legacy in terms of features ... According to their table at least...
Actually, it's the LC+ 2.0 that approaches Legacy features. They seem to be converging, the only difference will end up being that LC+ 2.0 will be mostly semi-scale, and any of the really big (and expensive) stuff will be reserved for Legacy.
 

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And I gather there's a lionchief hook on new legacy... Which is suggesting. I mean it does seem possible the parts for the base/controller might end up in the same category as the parts for mth remote... And then what of LCS? Maybe the Bluetooth approach will go both ways...
 

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The E7 ABB in Golden State colors is interesting. It's out of my budget and an ABB set of E7s is much too long for my layout. Other than that nothing really. Kinda the same issue with volume 1. I don't need a SP Lima GS (have a MTH Premier GS4 and GS6) but the Baldwin GS1 was very interesting, but way out of my price range at almost $2k.
 

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Prices keep creeping upwards, $95 for a scale boxcar. Certainly seems very excessive for a boxcar. The NYC Explorer set is interesting but I am pretty sure the real deal was not a Shark.

Bill
 

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I am in Chicago on business and stopped in to Chicagoland Hobby as I usually do. I spotted the catalog at the last minute. As you regulars know, I am a Rock Island guy, and generally a midwestern names guy. The 1st thing I thought of doing is coming on the forum and seeing reaction.

I found it interesting that Lionel puts out a catalog a bit after MTH puts out their last one. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but it's still interesting and I believe they had spies on the MTH scene and knew what Mike was contemplating. Catalogs are conceived far in advance I am sure.

I think the prices are ridiculous. But - they are the only consistent game in town now. No major competitor. Atlas and Williams are bite players and most everyone on this forum simply comments "no way, too expensive." If everyone buys at least ONE overpriced new item from this catalog, perhaps Lionel sticks around. But if this forum is a "snap shot" of the overall market, then Lionel surely is headed to the 3rd Rail route of producing premium products at premium prices on a BTO basis for the most part. Now, dealers are in deep doodoo if they were MTH heavy or mutual. NOW dealers have little choice but to buy Lionel product to stock their new shelves and perhaps Lionel bullies them (of course we would never know) to buy the $99 box car that can be had for a lot less on ebay.

I've seen MTH prices already on the rise on ebay. I suspect with Lionels 20% increase across the board, we will see Lionel rolling stock even more higher on ebay. I am buying a lot these days but I suppose I need to step back and build the new layout. I went in and got 6 used items from Chicagoland for $160, none over $30. (I got a couple of buildings or accessories) I wanted 2-3 locomotives but I'm just tapped out.

As mentioned, the pricing is take it or leave it big middle finger to the hobbyist. BUT, there are a few items I will need. The issue is I don't buy multiples, rarely. I have been looking for passenger train E's for my Union Pacific passenger train 6 car MTH Premier set. But MTH did not come out with a Premier U.P. E in their last 2 catalogs so I am subjected to scouring ebay (which has very little at bend over prices) or Caboose Stop in Cedar Falls, Iowa where I looked at a PS1 ABA for $400 (Premier).

On page 24-25 Lionel brings out "The City of Los Angeles" in AB livery for $999.99 (OK, $1000 for 2 locomotives with a 10% pre order discount I'm still looking at $900!) These appear to be nice flagship models which could pull my U.P. passenger consist in the highest style. If they are duds mechanically, I would be in a world of hurt. I would pull these out maybe once a month to run the consist, and I do NOT want to buy another one in the coming years. If this were the last UP passenger diesel I buy, and I get a solid 25 years out of it - or more - then that would be great.

Now - I will compare this cost ($900) to what is on ebay and at the hobby store and decide. Technically I am in no hurry, but part of me wants to get the darn passenger locomotive and be done with it.

Since I have been clamoring for Rock Island in Lionel catalogs, I doubt I will pass up the E7 on pages 30-31. Lionel likely won't come out with an E in Rock Island for several more years - just my opinion based on what I have seen recently. The color pattern chosen is the key here. I have a couple of "The Rocket" E sets and I may have this one in an older MTH ABA. But this one looks awfully well executed, in Legacy (although I run conventional I at least KNOW it has Lionel's highest detail) But now Lionel forces me with a tough decision, buy 2 $1000 AA sets for road names OR choose between the 2.

Now, I am adding "Golden State" passenger cars off ebay and just purchased 2 from TRAINZ. I think I have 4 now. I kept waiting for an MTH Premier set. I have a hard time telling off ebay what is 1:48 or not. I have the "silver" Lionel 21" for Rock Island including Station Sounds which I purchased for $200 off ebay. The 4 car set from Lionel was $500 4 years ago. Now that same set in Golden State is $730! And Lionel is badging all but one as Southern Pacific. The "Station Sounds" Diner Golden Harvest is Rock Island at $360!

I think I will wait to get my 2 car set from TRAINZ later this week, add what else I have and decide. I don't need the 4 car pack, but the Station sounds "Golden Harvest" would be a nice addition. ($360). The Vista Dome option is labeled Southern Pacific but cars were liberally swapped between the lines so that's not a big concern. But, running conventional I don't need the "vision" option. I have a smartphone but that feature is not a big deal to me, so I will continue to look for used options. The problem is a "rising tide lifts all boats" and now ebayers will hold fast to their over priced 20 year old offerings.

On pages 38-39 are some values from Lionel. These are Legacy GP7's priced about the same as the last MTH catalogs. And these are colorful and interesting road names in my opinion. If you are a fan of these road names, these would be good purchases in my opinion. A way to throw a bone at Lionel with a NEW purchase without breaking the bank. Unfortunately, most of the forum will pass on these too.

As others have noted, the rolling stock is expensive. So, to add one, the presentation would have to be unique. I like the UP PS-5 covered gondola on page 52. At $90, with a 10% pre order discount, it would be tough. If Lionel prices these at $69, then I buy 2. Ditto for the roof hatch box cars on page 53. With the yellow colored doors, these show well. I have several of the Union Pacific ones already in MTH Premier so my focus would be on the Chicago and Northwestern but I can get perfectly good rolling stock in that road name for a lot less. I picked up a piggy back 2 trailer flat car today from Chicagoland in MTH Premier for $30!

The Southern box car shows well and I would add that, but Lionel is holding me hostage here at $95. Southern Box Cars were occasionally seen in the Midwest, so it's appropriate. But I have found some Rock Island Lionel box cars that retailed for $79.95 on ebay or from the dealers for $50 to $60. Lionel needs to think. These are not BTO, so they will make a run of them. They are ultimately, just O36 capable box cars and there is a ton of inventory out there. To buy new, Lionel needs a "respectable" price. If these are $95, then what will a catalog price be in 2 years?? $105. Then you have priced everyone out since box cars essentially never wear out. Potential buyers who are not flush with stupid cash will simply stock their shelves with 2nd hand rolling stock from estates.

The hoppers and 2 packs on pages 54-56 are so outrageously priced, I hope buyers send a message by NOT bothering with them. $250 for a 2 pack of coal hoppers?! $125 a car? Insane. The PS-2 Hoppers on page 55 are very common in the 2nd hand markets. If you are in Michigan you might want the cool Ann Arbor orange Hopper for $90, but otherwise Lionel should have capped these at $69. There is nothing new to justify a 30% increase.

I love the cabooses on page 56, and don't care about pricing here. Cabooses are offered less and less in catalogs and I have all that I need, basically. But if one of these road names speaks to you, then $110 is about the going rate for detailed cabooses.

The Flatcars on page 57 are a nice value. How much detail do you need on flatcars, the load needs to be detailed IMO, and here you can get a unique load for $50 a piece. None of these are my road names, but if there was UP I might have pulled the trigger here, for $46 pre sale.

Everything I see on pages 58-59 is a nice move by Lionel. Scale in size is the key here.

Very little Lionchief items. I will not be buying the GP7 in Rock Island on page 65, but for a brand new engine, that's not an outrageous price. I can get Williams - MTH - Lionel GP7's and GP9's on ebay all day long for $200 or less.
 

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Good Evening Everyone,

Bryan, I tend to agree on the cost of some of the items that you pointed out(especially a few of the various "scale" freight cars), but on the cost of the various AA or AB diesels I have a different opinion. I can't see $180-$200(after dealer discount) for a 2 pack of doorstop, whoops, I mean diecast 100 ton 3 bay hoppers. I would of preferred to see maybe 2 three packs or 3 two packs of each roadname using the older Standard O at about half the price of the diecase hoppers. plastic bodied 3 bay 100 ton hoppers. Lionel has done just that bringing back the old Standard O plastic bodied flatcars with I beam loads. What has happened to the Lionscale line? I'm still waiting for cars I ordered a couple of years ago that haaven't been delivered. Now on the AA or AB diesel sets(with both units being powered), the price after dealer discount is not that far from the cost of the MTH AA or AB diesel sets(with both units being powered). Mth E8 AA's, Alco Pa AA's, F7 AA's. etc are generally running between $800-$900 for the powered pair(not speaking of any kind of secondary market here). If it's a roadname you really want, especially something that's local,, then it's either pony up or have something custom painted.

And just to show I'm putting my money where my mouth is, I will be ordering the Monongahela RF-16 Sharks-yes an ABBA set. I have asked both Lionel and MTH to make these in the past and nothing has happened until now. I will have to e-mail Ryan at Lionel however about getting some of the details correct on these before they get into production. And as much as I would love to have those new B&LE and P&LE 100 ton hoppers, I will pass because of the cost & construction material.
 

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Very good Nick! I love this kind of information. You are ordering an item which you have looked for - for sometime. THIS is what Lionel and previously MTH could do to sell new expensive items - provide items which are rarely seen and which we want badly enough to pay for. Offering items - especially rolling stock - which have been produced for years in essentially the same level of detail and prototypical size - are non starters.

My local hobby store took in several non boxed MTH Premier rolling stock for $20 a piece. I purchased about 15. This allows me to spend "more" on rarely seen new catalog items. Come on guys - buy something from Lionel to keep catalogs coming! I agree prices are high, but Lionel could easily shut down in future years leaving us with nothing new.
 

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Also, it is time for Menards to step up and make 1:48 cars alongside O27 cars. Offer 1:48 rolling stock at $35 or $40 means you can get 2 for the price of 1 Lionel. This might help keep Lionel in line. To me, rolling stock detail is less important. The job Menards did with the recent Canadian Pacific box car is great BUT it looks small compared to my scale size rolling stock. Sure - it's $20 or so, but with the bad decision Lionel made to skip the low end market (overall) with $90 to $99 rolling stock, $35 for Menards would sell.
 

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There's such a vast secondary market, you don't need any of this new stuff for years, decades maybe. Lionel would do well to go to every major train show, buy the lot of it and send it all to the chopper.
 

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And I gather there's a lionchief hook on new legacy... Which is suggesting. I mean it does seem possible the parts for the base/controller might end up in the same category as the parts for mth remote... And then what of LCS? Maybe the Bluetooth approach will go both ways...
Think of the limited market for the controllers compared to mass market electronics. . You have to recoup engineering costs and all the costs associated with offering a physical product without economies of scale.

Or, an app for iPhone and Androids. It just takes all the physical costs out of the product, Easy to distribute, upgrade, and so on.

Perhaps in the future, we'll be debating which app is better at running trains.
 
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