Model Train Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
First time I have seen this.

Varney Docksider. Ungeared wheels are normal and do not short across, geared wheels with identical wheel structure show a dead short across the wheels. I removed the brass rims and exposed the shafts splines and see no insulator. Any ideas? Factory error?

Thinking about removing some metal from one wheel, apply some epoxy as an insulator and put the rim back on. :(
546513
546514
546515
546516
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
818 Posts
This is above my paygrade :D BUT is that an insulator ring inside the tire on the geared wheelset? And would the wheel on the same side of the ungeared wheelset not need the same insulator?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Hi cid, Normally insulators appear around the axle on opposite sides picking up voltage - current from the track and sending it to the motor. Never should there be a direct short across any set of wheels. A direct short shows up as an overload on the transformer if it has an indicator, if not you get the smoke test at the wheels. Rolling stock always have non-conductive wheels.

But, yes, that is my plan remove metal from one wheel and apply non-conductive epoxy then reinstall the flanged rim. I'm just waiting for someone to tell me that that won't work and offer a better idea. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,313 Posts
It looks to me like the wheel on the bottom in your last photo already had some type of insulation. The ID appears to be black while the ID of the other wheel is brass.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
I agree, Lehigh, the wheel at the bottom of the picture has some sort of insulator on the inside of the wheel. Try testing the resistance between the part of the wheel that touches the rail and the inside - the black part.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,310 Posts
@rsv1ho, you didn't actually answer cid's question. He's trying to point out to you the black strip inside the tire from the geared wheel and you seem to have replied with something completely unrelated? In your last picture I can also see something similar on the inside of the opposite wheel of the ungeared axle, which makes me think that not only is the insulation damaged from the removed tire, but also that the ungeard axle has been reversed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
638 Posts
Yes, there is an insulator (maybe old Bakelite) embedded in the hub and axle goes into that...
You could consider cutting your losses and get a state of the art Dockside from a couple different Manufacturers...
I'll bet there are a bunch on ebay, cheap; DC, or DCC/no sound, with low flanges and working knuckle couplers...

PS. Just looked..There must be 30 of them !! Several are less than $10 !!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
@rsv1ho, you didn't actually answer cid's question. He's trying to point out to you the black strip inside the tire from the geared wheel and you seem to have replied with something completely unrelated? In your last picture I can also see something similar on the inside of the opposite wheel of the ungeared axle, which makes me think that not only is the insulation damaged from the removed tire, but also that the ungeard axle has been reversed.
I agree, Lehigh, the wheel at the bottom of the picture has some sort of insulator on the inside of the wheel. Try testing the resistance between the part of the wheel that touches the rail and the inside - the black part.
I agree, and your all exactly right. Your eyes saw what my 83 year old eyes didn't.

Unfortunately the insulator disintegrated when I tried to put everything back together so I had to use my idea of using epoxy as an insulator which worked perfectly. All is good now.

I/we learned something, not all insulators are located at the axle interface. Varney actually made two different sized brass rims.

Thanks all for your help.

546566
546567
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
I would worry that in putting the wheel on might remove enough epoxy to actually short out. If the material that is already there is no longer an effective insulator then I would try so high grade insulating tape then maybe a little epoxy to hold it all together.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Yes, there is an insulator (maybe old Bakelite) embedded in the hub and axle goes into that...
You could consider cutting your losses and get a state of the art Dockside from a couple different Manufacturers...
I'll bet there are a bunch on ebay, cheap; DC, or DCC/no sound, with low flanges and working knuckle couplers...

PS. Just looked..There must be 30 of them !! Several are less than $10 !!
546568

546569


As insurance, I went on ebay yesterday and found these two from the same seller. $8.00 total.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Seems to be doing well, will have to try it on the locomotive.

546570


Came to me in green paint. Resprayed it Krylon Spanish olive matte. Kind of like it.

546571
 

·
Yard Master & Research
Joined
·
10,637 Posts
Just looking at the posts there are two truths. One the insulated rim does not have electrical contact with the axle. The insulated section from the frame has to deliver power to the motor. Usually by wire or wiper. The setups can be different but the insulators are the clue to the circuit of the two rail system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks, the one thing I might have done right. :(

One persons solution. Presently on ebay for $62.

546573
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
638 Posts
Hope you put the drivers in-quarter before the epoxy dried. And those wheel treads/tires/flanges being brass need more constant alcohol cleaning.. Brass grows green (unconductive) mold. The old 3 pole, non-skewed motor can be quite clumsy when creeping...But, as an item unto itself, It's quite understandable the attraction it can have....
I have an old N&W Riv y6b with that same-genre motor filling the cab and pizza-cutter flanges.. It's never run.. Just for looking at atop my bedroom air conditioner, being my fav articulated !
I hope you get her to run well, M 🏭🛤🌄🌵
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Nice to meet a fellow Rivarossi Y6B fan. I have several.

546583


but many look like this.

546584


Most with can motors. But some as you mentioned.

I have been taken by the unconventional and mostly unwanted Varneys, meaning they can be had cheap. All of these are F-3's and 7's and are all coil spring belt drives. Most of them i have had to restore to working condition. I never completely removed the wheels from the axles on the Dockside so everything should be in sync.

546585
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Rolling stock always have non-conductive wheels.
ah..nope ... if rolling stock has plastic wheels, they would be non conductive ..
however, if they are metal wheels, then yes they are conductive, in most cases they would have insulators on one side of a metal axle, or a plastic axle so that they are not conductive side to side .....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
426 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Of course some rolling stock have metal wheels, I have lot's of Rivarossi's equipped that way. But they are insulated one from another therefore they do not have conductive wheels between the set.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,151 Posts
Yes, Rsv1ho, it appears the insulation is kaput! Did you get it back together?
546588

using just epoxy? I also have a an old Rivarossi. It was a $20 non-running ebay find. Nicely weathered, and only had a tow bar problem! Runs just fine now, but I need to put a decoder in. These things use to thunder past our house in Fostoria!
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top