Model Train Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 40 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
415 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I was just wondering what everyone's thoughts were concerning events that have been happening lately in our nation. I have listed a few below. Let us keep it clean and not inflammatory.

A. Confederate Flag
B. Statues being torn down.
C. Name changing. Streets, Musical Groups, Military Bases etc.
D. Rioting vs Protesting
E. Govt. Officials & their performance levels. Or lack there of.

I am sure there may be other topics. But what ever Topic is discussed please keep replies civil.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts
If you forget your history, you'll eventually relive it.

I think that, the Flynn Effect notwithstanding, people today are not taught how to think properly. They are taught to consider their own position first and to then place it in juxtaposition with those views opposite. But, when it comes to understanding the behaviours of yesteryear, they impute to the people who did those things a quality and character that they did not have. It is common for each successive generation to think that those who are aging out of productive life are dullards and oafs, and good riddance.

I haven't lauded many people in history, and certainly don't need to walk past grand statues of them. I don't mind if they go missing, but I DO mind if they are removed because the removers think they are so much smarter, more highly motivated, and more altruistic and considerate of others' sensibilities than they were.

Name changing is common anyway. Nothing lasts forever. As long as the signs don't change in my lifetime so that I can navigate easily in my dotage, I'm happy to see them change after I'm gone. However, the problem of renaming them for the reasons I stated in the previous paragraph still stand; erasing the names of the lions doesn't inure another generation, or immunize them, from repeating their alleged crimes, or from inventing new ones which will, in time, have successive generations vilifying them the very same way.

Rioting is fine, provided it doesn't lead to injury, death, or property damage, and provided it is done for the right reasons. I can't think of any off hand... Looting isn't rioting; it is theft, and is an invitation to anarchy or retribution. Mobs aren't known for rational thinking, but they do very well running on hubris, greed, opportunism, anger, resentment, fear, danger...

Governments are only as effective as we encourage them to be. If they fail, we allowed it. If they succeed, we enabled them. One thing is certain: our leaders' mettle and skill are quickly revealed under severe tests, but so is our acumen at selecting and voting them into office.

Defunding the police: what a great idea. Take some of their funding, offer those who enjoy wellness checks as a living those jobs after some retraining, and use the police personnel who are left to do....you know....policing. Not welfare checks. We don't put social workers in riot gear and make them toe the line, do we? Some think that there should be no policing at all. They are nearsighted, and have that trouble with clear thinking that I mentioned at the top.

Making policing better: heck yeah!! Better selection, better training, better retention, better supervision, better accountability. That last one is singularly important. Over the Floyd debacle, it was a hideous event that should never have happened. Not the way it did and for the reasons, imagined or real, that it did. Who covered for the police officer all those months and years? Why? Someone needs to answer for his actions if he had a somewhat related history of the same orientation to arresting people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,697 Posts
Well, since you asked:
A. Confederate Flag - the South lost: time to get over that and move on.
B. Statues being torn down - I respect and in many ways admire Robert E. Lee, but respect my friends and fellow citizens who find some of his behavior offense a lot more, so I would not stand in the way. I also understand the people who are objecting to and tearing down the statues of Christopher Columbus: I studied enough maritime history in college and since to know he was hardly the choir boy explorer my public school textbooks make him out to be, but a real s**t and pretty close to nothing but an opportunitic plunderer.
C. Name changing. Streets, Musical Groups (We always called them "Lady A" anyway, so what's the big deal?), Military Bases etc. - renaming has been happening for hundreds of years, and will continue. Just the way it is: it wasn't always Martin Luther Kng Blvd, it wasn't always Kennedy Airport, etc. I have no issue, just wish people would name some streets after my heroes: General Leslie Groves, Barbara Jordan, John McCain.
D. Rioting vs Protesting. Rioters and looters belong in prison for a long time, not jail for a few days. Protests are fine, and in fact necessary (Anthony Quinn as Pope in Shoes of the Fisherman: "I might be forced to accept [civil disorder] as the price for social change." Or something like that. (Great movie by the way)
E. Govt. Officials & their performance levels. Or lack there of. Well, I have to say, given their demonstrated competence, I'm glad many of them don't work hard at their job.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
24 Posts
If you forget your history, you'll eventually relive it.
The thing is, we keep reliving it anyway. A simple example from current events... How many times do people have to demonstrate/protest over the course of decades before others realize (whether they personally see it or not) and act on the fact that we are not all treated equally despite laws that say we all should be? What did we learn from the last time and the times before that? How do we actually fix the problem rather than most of us just waiting for it to blow over as it always has? We move on but we don't progress. These are rhetorical questions for the purposes of this forum but they can't be in the real world. I think that old cliche needs to be re-written as, "If you don't learn from your history, you're bound to repeat it."

I can't imagine that any text books will be revised to say that the Union fought the civil war over an un-named issue, against an un-named opponent led by un-named generals. Nobody is going to eradicate Ken Burns' Civil War documentary. History won't be erased or changed. It's just that popularity is waning for the public display of monuments and symbols that represent a reverence for values that are contrary to those laid out in our founding tenets and documents. For example, this oldy-but-goody from 1776, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Or this classic, "...one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." My understanding of the re-naming/statue removal issue is that, if you don't measure up to our standards as a nation, whether in the present or through the lens of history, you won't be forgotten but you don't deserve to be memorialized.

The troubling reality is that the human species, regardless of race, ethnicity, religion, nationality, etc. hasn't perfected our ability to truly learn from our mistakes. We've gotten better on some of the issues over time but still have a lot of work to do. After all, we are striving to become "a more perfect union," aren't we? The only way to improve at anything in life is to acknowledge problems and then make significant, honest efforts toward real, pragmatic solutions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,384 Posts
If you can't say something nice...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,841 Posts
The display of the Confederate flag was corrupted by its appearance at every KKK rally. That's why people object to it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
... people today are not taught how to think properly.
I've been saying this for years now. People are not taught to think, period. If you don't stay within the lines and accept everything at face value, if you question anything or disagree you are a troublemaker and not a "team player".

E. Govt. Officials & their performance levels. Or lack there of. Well, I have to say, given their demonstrated competence, I'm glad many of them don't work hard at their job.
I did LOL at that. I agree 100%.

For example, this oldy-but-goody from 1776, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Problem is, there's a large chunk of society that isn't willing to pursue happiness. They think they're owed it because of something that happened in the past. Could've been hundreds of years ago or it could be the "our parents got us in this mess" mentality. Regardless, they think they're entitled to happiness.

Or this classic, "...one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Yes. Those people that have been killed or whose lives have been destroyed by the recent mob criminal behavior deserve justice too. But they won't get it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts
ARR - ..."I can't imagine that any text books will be revised to say that the Union fought the civil war over an un-named issue, against an un-named opponent led by un-named generals. Nobody is going to eradicate Ken Burns' Civil War documentary. History won't be erased or changed. It's just that popularity is waning for the public display of monuments and symbols that represent a reverence for values that are contrary to those laid out in our founding tenets and documents. For example, this oldy-but-goody from 1776, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Or this classic, "...one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." My understanding of the re-naming/statue removal issue is that, if you don't measure up to our standards as a nation, whether in the present or through the lens of history, you won't be forgotten but you don't deserve to be memorialized..."

History appears through filters. Filters that favour a modern take on events of the past are just that...modern takes on events of the past. They're no more right, unless currency makes them right of its own accord, than were the decisions of the time. As I was careful to say in my first comment, to impute to actors long dead nefarious, ill-conceived, and/or criminal and unethical thinking is to fail to have lived in the time, a condition which afflicts all post-modern revisionist assessments. Why would we maintain and celebrate the pyramids in Mexico, or the tombs in Egypt, any more than our own generals when we know the purpose to which those pyramids were put 'far too often' for our modern principles? They were built by slaves who were then murdered on their surfaces to provide a human sacrifice. Are they not monuments as steeped in a sordid past...according to our modern virtues and ethics? Why not tear them down if the reasoning for tearing down a statue saluting leaders who apparently no longer make the grade should have theirs removed, and so unceremoniously?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
407 Posts
Alms for a minority population. Not saying there isn't some grievance room there.
It's projected in the not to distant future that the white male will be a minority population in this country.
 

·
Admin
Joined
·
43,706 Posts
E. Govt. Officials & their performance levels. Or lack there of. Well, I have to say, given their demonstrated competence, I'm glad many of them don't work hard at their job.
Truer words were never spoken! My questiion is, why do they keep getting elected?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
688 Posts
Our choices are limited to those who have managed to advance thru our money-driven system.
I feel that we have only a limited time to continue to struggle along as we are going. I won't see our downfall,
but I have kids and grandkids...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,841 Posts
What is next on the agenda to eliminate ? George Washington and Thomas Jefferson ??
The legacy of these men and the rest of the founding fathers is that they created the USA. The legacy of the Confederate leaders is that they were willing to divide the country.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,789 Posts
Jefferson kept, and slept with, slaves. Look, if the determinant in all of this is whether or not a person, or his antecedents, usurped some kind of universal and natural right of another's, then nobody should have any heroes. The blacks, themselves tribal in culture centuries earlier, were usurpers in their own ways, raiding, stealing, raping, and enslaving. The Mongols did it, The Egyptians did it, Portuguese did it, the Hutus and Tutsis did it, the Dinga and Nweri did it, the N. American indigenous did it... Every one of those cultures was acting out of custom, cultural relativism, principle, and handed-down values. Painting it all with a 'modern' brush neither improves it nor ought to diminish it's relevance and importance in shaping human culture into what it is today.

BTW, look for the anonymous letter just published widely in the press from a purportedly black Berkeley professor in the past 36 hours. It's a trenchant piece of rhetoric, and worth a read. The citizensfreepress site has it up.
 
1 - 20 of 40 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top